Gotham Penguin Gay

Gotham Star Shuts Down Those Who Complain a Gay Penguin Is Not 'Canon'

If you carp that the seeming queerness of Gotham‘s Oswald Cobblepot aka Penguin goes against DC Comics canon — but you have no beef with, say, Bruce and Selina being childhood BFFs on the Fox series — Robin Lord Taylor has a word to describe you.

During an appearance with castmate Sean Pertwee at this weekend’s Rhode Island Comic Con, Taylor addressed those who have come to him to claim they have “no problem” with Oswald being “gay or queer,” except for the fact that it conflicts with character traits established in comic book canon. “That’s a bunch of horses–t,” he declares in the FanGeek video below, at the 1:00 mark.

By demonstrating such a double standard, “What you’re saying to me is, ‘I am homophobic, and I am afraid of gay people,'” Taylor argues. “That is exactly what you’re saying.”

Interestingly, Taylor at the very start of the video shares his own opinion that Gotham‘s Oswald “is not” necessarily gay but “emotionally fractured” and “vulnerable” in the wake of both his parents dying. As such, anyone who treated him with kindness and respect, as Edward Nygma has, would have earned his fervent attention.

“I truly believe that had it been Barbara, or Tabitha… or Butch…. Regardless of if they were male or female, he would have had that same obsession,” he contends.

What do you think of RLT’s thoughts on both “It’s not canon!” critics and Oswald’s sexuality?

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88 Comments
  1. Oh, wow, I guess everybody is shut down now. Nobody will ever complain.

    • Temperance says:

      People will always complain; he just made it clear that the complaint is irrelevant. And he’s pretty much right – it’s not like it was made very clear from the start that this universe was it’s own thing. There is nothing at all intrinsic about the character that would make any orientation not work.

      • as140 says:

        No, he is pretty much wrong.
        “What you’re saying to me is, ‘I am homophobic, and I am afraid of gay people,”
        All he does is insulting the viewers. Insults are always wrong.

        • choko986 says:

          Yea I agree. HE is the one spreading FEAR amongst people. He is a heterophobic, that is what he said in that video. Nothing more than a heterophobic little child.

      • Derick says:

        It is not irrelevant just because you, and he says so. It is very much relevant since the character, and who is trying to play are not the same character. Penguin was a whore monger, fat slob. This guy is not THE Penguin. He comes off as an imposter.

  2. Arthur says:

    He is absolutely right, that being said, the problem that I have with Oswald is that his infatuation is being used as a sort of comedic relief instead of a proper character development, which is unfortunate because both Oswald and Nygma are by far the best characters of this mess of a show

    • john says:

      Really – cause penguin was never comic relief
      not on the adam west series
      never in the movies as a bufoon with michael keaton

      Penguin has always been a bufoon – he’s the most ridiculous batman villian there is

      But gotham is too worried with introducing new villians and ridiculous threads without following up that the show has already gone round the bend – the whole owl court wayne clone is awful

    • as140 says:

      He is abolutely wrong. He did say nothing except: “You are all afraid of gays.”

  3. ndixit says:

    To be honest, the gay Penguin plot only bothers me because it destroyed what could have been a great bromance between Nygma and Cobblepot. And now they have gone down the stereotypical jealousy route which is going to put the two characters at odds with one another.

    • Steve says:

      In the comics they are not buddies..when they are it’s only because they are both “villians” of the story. But, I do agree that they are hurting the Penguin character, not because he’s gay..I actually think that’s a brilliant change, but because he’s nothing but a jealous pining child right now.

      I think this show goes one more year and they will time jump. The actor playing Bruce Wayne is okay, but way to young looking and won’t be able to bulk up enough.

  4. madhatter360 says:

    Given that Gotham keeps subtitling its seasons I’ve suggested for a while now that it should be called Gotham: the increasingly unlikely chances that Jim Gordon would ever become commissioner. It’s a fun show but makes almost no sense as a canon prequel. I completely agree with what he’s saying.

    • melaniedhi says:

      Are you kidding? The current arc will make him go a step further in his career. He’ll be chief and someday Commissioner. Just is a natural path. You don’t start from the top

  5. gcw07 says:

    Is anything canon in Gotham? I’d say no based off of what I’ve seen.

  6. CK says:

    Are people really complaining about things being canon in “Gotham” of all shows? If anything, the show exists to defy and challenge canon stories and origins and that has made it a much better show.

  7. Malachi says:

    OMG are you serious? The actor sounds like a SJW. What a pathetic exuse.

  8. dave says:

    Of all the genres, I find comic fans to be the biggest homophobes. Scifi comes second. The fanbase I guess just lacks maturity.

    • Anne says:

      There’s almost this extreme polarization in that kind of fandom (I speak as a convention-going member of it). You can encounter some of the worst misogyny, homophobia and racism in it from people who just don’t want to share anything…but you’ll also find some of the most inclusive and open minded people who love the genre *because* of its ability to be different. It’s an odd space to be in sometimes hahah.

    • Celina says:

      I don’t think it is homophobic to want the character to be like he/she is in the comics.
      But, again, the only thing Gotham has of the comics are the characters’ names. So I don’t know why people are mad about.
      The sad thing is that they could’ve made a great show about gotham with a lead gay character, which is Renee Montoya. She is the main character of Gotham Central, a comic book about the police department of Gotham. She and Allen are great! But I think the show destroyed that too.
      I feel sad that Gotham exists…

  9. Jim says:

    This show has gotten literally everything about Batman wrong, so I guess he has a point.

  10. Chuck says:

    I was wondering how long it was going to take for people to complain.

  11. Being gay is not the problem IMO. Going after a straight man to the extent Penguin is is is the problem. It must be hard for gay people to know if the people they like are gay or straight (I only assume) but when you know . . .

    • Spencer says:

      Yeah, I know the feeling. It reminds me of when a man keep going after a woman who’s not interested. So I’d put in a different way what you said “Being interest is not the problem IMO. Going after a a person to the extent Penguin is is is the problem.” No matter gender or sexual orientation that sure is a problem,

    • Count says:

      Which is why he said it could be a man or a woman, because it’s really about obsession.

  12. christopher bee says:

    Robin has it excatcly right. The Penguin is such a broken person, who´s only loved ones were killed and died in his arms. So he is searching and hoping for love in his life, not matter of gender or orientation.

    I do enjoy Gotham very much.

    • as140 says:

      That is what Robin Lord Taylor is like not what the penguin from the comics is.

      • Zor says:

        Taylor is not a broken person. Furthermore, pretty much nothing in Gotham is like the comics. As a comic book reader of almost 40 years, I can confidently say that. Ivy (not Pamela) is a character they grew up to play up for a sexy character, who is a prostitute with a young mind, Batgirl’s mother is a psycho killer, Montoya and Allen were the same age as Gordon who didn’t like him – all things not in the comics. There was no Fish Mooney, there was no romance between Gordon and Dr. Thompkins, there were no super villains that fought a young Gordon, Selina Kyle did not witness The Waynes murdered, nor killed anyone as a child, and so on.

        The Penguin originally was a bullied child because of his weight, always carried an umbrella because his mother was concerned he’d be caught in the rain and get sick and die as his father did, and outside his mother the only friends he had were the birds he cared for. The character has undergone many changes since then, most notably in “Batman Returns,” so it is not fair to pin down a definitive origin for the character, especially in light of all the other changes in the comics in the past and most notably due to The New 52 which has changed things for every comic book character on the show, including Bruce “Batman” Wayne. In addition, as Oswald Cobblepot is a character who can be written as a fully dimensional character, who not only has had an obsession with penguins and birds, but is shown as someone with obsessions and completely in need of all kinds of therapy, it is not unreasonable to suggest that down the road a comic book writer may show that he’s had a “love” affair with a man and make it canon.

        Robin Lord Taylor is upset because people have been angry about The Penguin possibly being gay – and moreso that a male character might be represented as gay – as opposed to other character traits or issues with the show. As soon as he outed himself as a happily married man that loved another man, he was lashed out against with homophobic comments by so-called fans of Batman – despite the fact that Batman would be against such things and is obviously cool with someone being gay, as his cousin Batwoman is gay, for example. People seem to have taken issue with Taylor himself being gay and that a male character might be gay, even though Taylor has thus stated that The Penguin isn’t necessarily gay, or even bisexual, or even pansexual, or asexual, or hetrosexual – at this point any “love” is an obsession for The Penguin.

        Again, before the storyline has finished people have become up in arms that a male Batman character might be gay, but when that issue is confronted, it shifts to the idea that Penguin might have any kind of relationship with a man, even if it’s not romantic in nature. A man having sex with a man, by the way, does not mean someone is gay. There is no reason to be upset that Cobblepot may have obsession over female or male because it can fit the character’s historic psychological profile of a mentally ill individual with obssessive tendencies. To be honest with oneself, considering the other, radical, character changes made in the series, this then becomes an issue of being uncomfortable with male x male relations than of being untrue to the comic book series.

        As for the other posters, quit blaming Taylor for seeding hatred when there has been documented hatred/ prejudice/ fear against him when he came out and this whole “Penguingayte” is based on that and not rational evidence regarding *this* version of the character and changes in the TV series as a whole.

  13. kirads09 says:

    I am not comic expert. However, I never considered Gotham as sticking to purely “canon” Batman origin story anyway. I always saw it as a bit of a “reimagined” telling. Oswald’s sexuality doesn’t matter to me one way or the other. I think RLT is right – no matter who it would’ve been, after losing his mother, anyone who showed him the support Nygma did he would’ve latched onto like glue. Of course, I think Nygma has his own agenda for doing so (not love and kindness).

  14. Preacher Book says:

    Geeezus, nothing in “Gotham” is canon.

  15. james brunt says:

    What difference does it make? In Batman and Robin, Batgirl was Alfred’s niece — not commissioner Gordon’s daughter…. also, the Joker did not kill the Waynes

    • as140 says:

      1. The Joker only killed the Wayne´s in the 89 movie, not in the comics.
      2. This is a much much bigger change of the character. Does it change anything if Batgirl is Gordon´s daughter or Alfred´s niece? No!

  16. Johnny Styles says:

    Complaining that something isn’t canon on Gotham is not quite the best argument someone can make for why the Penguin can/cannot be gay.

    • as140 says:

      Then, let´s say it´s out of character.

      • Craig says:

        It’s not out of character. The Penguin is not being represented as gay but an obsessed individual which is completely in character. Whether he would have been in what he appears as love with The Riddler or with Fish Mooney (who was never in the comic books) – is a moot point because the character is a messed up individual who is not in love but obsessed with someone. Just as the character turned to birds for comfort in the comics, he turns to a human individual now in the TV series … a series that has long been completely “out of character” with the canon of the comic books.

  17. Nancy L Storm says:

    I don’t like Gotham writers only showing LGBT as criminals.

  18. Nancy L Storm says:

    Would like this show to have a LGBT character who is neither criminal or mentally unstable AND who isn’t killed off.

  19. Larc says:

    However Robin Lord Taylor may be altering the concept people have of Penguin, I think he’s doing an exceptional job with the role. If there’s ever a dull moment in the show, it’s certainly not when he’s on screen.

  20. JMark (formerly JM) says:

    RLT is exactly right, both in his character insight, that Penguin is ’emotional fractured’ and would have latched onto anyone, male or female, who supported him, and his assertion that the ‘canon’ argument is ludicrous. Supporting his character insight, was his obsession with Gordon after he saved his life–wanting to work with him, etc. Oh, how people have short memories…

  21. Spence says:

    I feel like the sexuality he’s looking for is “pansexual” or possibly “asexual”, if he’s trying to imply that Penguin would be infatuated by anyone regardless of gender. Perhaps he does more research into the sexuality spectrum before blasting viewers and voicing his own contradicting beliefs.

    • Mae Anne Ngo says:

      Robin did mention in an interview before (I cannot remember if it was on print or video) that he does not think Oswald is asexual per se.
      That because of the bullying and abuse that Oswald went through, he feels like he’s not deserving of physical love.
      Yet he still is somebody who wants to love and be loved, hence the line “somebody to share it with”.
      But we don’t know what brand of love this is,if it’s a deep need for companionship or something else.
      It’s pretty complicated.

  22. Ethan Harold says:

    This guy is an idiot. To say that people are “homophobic” just because they don’t want Penguin to be attempting to have a relationship with Nigma, shows how ignorant this guy is. A phobia is a fear of something, and not wanting Penguin to be gay, doesn’t mean you’re scared of gay people like come on dude, get some commom sense.

    • Matt Webb Mitovich says:

      Yeah, you might want to watch the video again, and listen.

    • Anne says:

      Dude seriously. Language, culture and common vernacular has accepted that ‘homophobia’ and all other social identity based phobias (ie: islamaphobia) doesn’t mean it’s based in the traditional concept of ‘fear’ as it pertains to say, arachnophobia.
      .
      When someone or a group of people don’t want to see representation of a certain group, in this case gay, then it’s homophobia. Trying to use language as an excuse is ridiculous. Your attempts to derail the conversation is deplorable

      • Ethan Harold says:

        Watch the video. He clearly says “you’re afraid of gay people.” My point was proven by him. And to people with common sense, and a grasp on the English language, it’s not common vocabulary. The word ‘Homophobia’ was created so that people who agreed with it, could use it to decribe someone who doesn’t agree with it. I do not accept that usage.

        • Mae Anne Ngo says:

          According to Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

          Homophobia
          noun ho·mo·pho·bia \ˌhō-mə-ˈfō-bē-ə\
          Definition of homophobia
          : irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals

      • THUNDERBOLT says:

        Laters with all the PC language and “phobia” BS! LGBTs don’t represent the majority of this country,and their puke-out loud same sex behaviors and values don’t belong in material based on iconic comicbook characters! we don’t care about who or why Gays are,so please stop unloading them on TV shows that we enjoy!

      • as140 says:

        “Language, culture and common vernacular has accepted that ‘homophobia’ and all other social identity based phobias (ie: islamaphobia) doesn’t mean it’s based in the traditional concept of ‘fear’ as it pertains to say, arachnophobia.”

        That is not correct.

  23. BB says:

    ‘Comic canon’ is an irrelevant argument in any discussion about a TV adaptation of source material that came from a comic. Hence, ‘adaptation’.

  24. keniri says:

    I have to say that I agree with the fans. It seems every television network is too focused on turning every gay character in a superhero movie or television series into some kind gay or lesbian event. This is why I stopped watching Gotham, stopped watching Supergirl, won’t watch the new Star Trek series. It’s gotten very ridiculous. These movie studios and television networks are only doing this to satisfy the LGBT liberals. I don’t have a problem with creating new characters for these TV shows but to do this for sake’s sake, it’s pathetic. I don’t have a problem with gays but to transfer a character who is straight/heterosexual in the comics to a gay or lesbian character on the screen … it’s mother bleeding pandering and doesnt belong anywhere in these TV shows or movies.

    • Anne says:

      Congrats, you’re a bigot! If you have problems with the increasing representation of gay people on tv, then you have a problem with gay people. If you weren’t bothered by all the gay people on tv, then you wouldn’t be a homophobic bigot.
      .
      You can’t say you don’t have a problem with gay people and then in the same breath complain about how many of them are on tv.

    • Katherine215 says:

      Shorter version: I’m not homophobic, I just hate the idea of LGBT individuals being treated like people!

  25. chuckiechk says:

    okay, so Gotham made Penguin maybe gay (not a fan, as I’m a comic follower and there is a 75 yr history they could pick storylines from) … but they also made Batman’s rouges 10 to 20 years older then batman. anyone looking for a classic comic television show with Gotham isn’t going to get it.

  26. GS says:

    Taylor is right. Being gay is not the defining characteristic of Penguin. He’s a greedy megalomaniac. He wants whats best for him, he’s not an idealogue. As a villian, he’s not interested in any world order that doesn’t benefit him. Who he sleeps with really doesn’t play into who he is as a villian. And he’s not evil because he’s gay, he’s evil because he’s evil. Some people are evil, that’s why they’re villians. Everyone should settle down, and wait for Batman to put the bird in jail, like he’s supposed to.

    • as140 says:

      ” Being gay is not the defining characteristic of Penguin. ”
      Then maybe they should not make whole episodes about that concept…

  27. john says:

    I have a beef with your idiotic use of the word queer – god you people are awful

  28. THUNDERBOLT says:

    The LGBT insanity has no place or business in these shows,or the material they’re based on!
    bad enough that The CW’s “SUPERGIRL” showed a stupid “coming out” storyline,but to mess with the “GOTHAM” characters like “Oswald Cobblepot” AKA “The Penguin” by turning the Batman villain into some fruitcake borderline Gay,is completely stupid beyond measure! please keep the Homosexuals out of our favorite TV shows,because our country is still divided by these
    people,and the parties responsible for selling us out to these same sex freaks! we really don’t need to see their ilk and puke on TV shows that are not about any of them!

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  30. While I find his “you’re just homophobic” response petulant, I agree that what we’re seeing in Cobblepot is not necessarily him being gay as much as him craving kindness, care, and attention. The character on Gotham has always been a bit of of a man-boy, never quite an adult as a result of the babying his mother bestowed upon him..Absent her, he is foundering for something to hold on to. His infatuation with Ed much more reflects this longing and need than anything adult or sexual.

  31. cmmorgan32 says:

    Seriously? When was this show ever going to be 100% faithful to the source material? Look at some of the press from 2014. No present adaptation of a comic book property is 100% faithful to its source material. Artistic/Creative liberty exists for a reason. Does the sexual orientation of Gotham’s Penguin really impact the character’s defining characteristics?

  32. Tossaway says:

    Taylor certainly comes across as an arrogant jerk. Folks do have a problem with changing established canon, and are not wrong for it. Hollywood seems determined to change fundamental character concepts just to change things or to support some misguided concept of “social justice” instead of being entertaining. Ask the folks behind the last Fantastic Four how that worked out.

    On the other hand, I don’t recall seeing anything establishing the character’s sexuality prior to this. The Penguin simply seemed mostly asexual.

  33. Concerned says:

    Ridiculous. With supergirl, flash, arrow, legends of tomorrow, and now gotham, all injecting a gay character into their classically straight storylines, It feels like we’re all being forcefed some type of agenda. A forced acceptance of the very untrue concept that homosexuality exists everywhere, and so we all NEED to see it.
    For the record, I don’t like other elements of the many characters storylines being changed either, but it really isn’t the same at all as changing their sexuality and forcing us to watch, what is for MOST of us, extremely awkward, and Ill-placed love scenes. I want something in this world to be immune from the social mind control, shoving acceptance down our throats everyday. Next we’ll find out that catwoman is transgender and the green arrow is bisexual.

    • Random Perfect says:

      Concerned, you do have some good points in your post. I am not “whichever phobic” I don’t like people in general, no matter who they sleep with.
      What has me upset is that these TV shows are being aired at 8pm, there has always been a standard in Broadcasting to have all shows that are aired before 9pm to be family friendly. Sadly my Sister was forced to explain to her 10 year old about homosexuality, how is that OK? I don’t even think she has had the normal Birds & the Bees talk with her yet! we are exposing kids to stuff WAY to soon in life.
      As far as Cannon is concerned, DC has always been a clean comic. when I say clean I mean, the fights were never bloody and they had an ethical code that kept the goodguys “Good” and maybe I am in la la land. But if a show is on at 8, Kids should be able to watch the shows, and Parents shouldn’t have to be worried about those shows either! Gotham is rate TV-14, but Super girl is PG. I am not “phobic” about anything, in general I don’t like anyone. I am worried that kids are not allowed to be kids. does this mean not everyone will be included, yeah. Suck it up, not everything is about you and where you sleep. There is more to a person then who they choose to love, if that is all you want people to know about you, then that is sad.

      • Mae Anne Ngo says:

        (sorry if this response is posted twice, not sure if my first post went through)

        “Sadly my Sister was forced to explain to her 10 year old about homosexuality, how is that OK? I don’t even think she has had the normal Birds & the Bees talk with her yet! we are exposing kids to stuff WAY to soon in life.” <— Well, LGBTQ people do exist in real life just like heterosexual people, but do parents have to explain how heterosexual intercourse works just to explain what heterosexuality is, probably not.
        Your sister and others might want to use the resources in this website
        http://www.hrc.org/resources/talking-with-kids-about-lgbt-issues
        Do you expect children to be "shielded" away from interacting with any LGBTQ teen/adult until you see "fit"?
        And how about LGBTQ children, you know they're humans too, right? You know they exist just like how heterosexual children exist, right?

        "But if a show is on at 8, Kids should be able to watch the shows, and Parents shouldn’t have to be worried about those shows either! " <— We have PG-14 shows here in the afternoon and the censor boards here in my country even put out an ad saying that it's not their job to tell your kids which shows not to watch, that it's a parents/guardians job to do so. They even had to remind people of that which is SO funny.

        "Suck it up, not everything is about you" Exactly, not everything is about you.

        • Random Perfect says:

          clearly you are only focused on your agenda, thus far there the show had been what it should be about, supergirl. I don’t give a crap about including everyone in everything, why should who someone sleeps with be an issue? I don’t care, but clearly you don’t want ME to have a choice either. You only want things your way. Me, I don’t like anyone.
          Cable programs do not follow the Broadcasters code of 8pm, maybe you should look up the history of broadcast TV.

          • Mae Anne Ngo says:

            “clearly you are only focused on your agenda” <– what agenda? is being a decent human being now considered an agenda? Never heard of that before. Hm….

            "why should who someone sleeps with be an issue?" <— Exactly it shouldn't. When Supergirl was super crushing on Jimmy, did that create a massive controversy? Nope. (though there was a time when this would be considered as "immoral")
            But when Oswald has feelings for Ed, suddenly it's all controversial. Lol double standards.

            "but clearly you don’t want ME to have a choice either" <— actually you do. You can grow up, be mature and a good human being, or don't.

            Another option would be to ignore what you don't like and focus on what you enjoy.
            When it comes to shows or movies, I could dislike a few plots or plot holes, but that wouldn't stop me from watching a show if I like it as a whole.

            "You only want things your way." <— So you mean your way is the right way then? And if people like inclusivity then they're wrong? Hm…

            "maybe you should look up the history of broadcast TV." <– Well it does depend on the country. Like I said in my country we do have PG-15 shows in the afternoon. I forgot to state that it's on free TV, meaning not cable TV.
            Though frankly, I am surprised that Gotham airs that early considering all the violence it has.
            What makes this whole thing ridiculously funny is the parents complaining "my child watches this show, they shouldn't see homosexuality", like they missed the whole queer women on the show since season 1 and all the violence depicted.
            Because apparently these parents are totally fine and dandy with the latter two but draw the line with queer men. So so so funny.

  34. Jason says:

    Seems every writer these days needs to throw a gay, trans, diverse character into the mix. But being gay, trans, diverse is already accepted by society at large. The writers apparently think they’re the vanguard against the majority hordes who are all homophobic racists, but obviously that’s not true. And seeing as there are no repercussions, it’s not brave, it’s just pandering.

  35. TJ. Church says:

    CORRECTION: Losing his mother (especially considering what a Mama’s boy he was on the show, to say nothing of the beyond-Oedipal issues) would leave him looking for love, meaning a connection to anyone of any gender soon would likely have romantic overtones.

    However, this article reminds me he lost BOTH parents recently, meaning his involvement in the death of Nygma’s love interest was due to Oswald wanting a romantic relationship, but this desire is NOT connected to/resulting from the parental hole.

  36. I don’t give a rat’s ass about canon. A gay relationship between two of TV’s creepiest characters doesn’t entertain me.

    The producers bet the farm on the gay agenda, only time will tell if they “chose wisely”.

    • Tim Church says:

      Nothing will tell if that was a wise choice, as the “bet” you’re saying they made is one they did not.

      Personally, part of me sees no reason to discuss it yet, while another thinks they are only discussing it now while it still appears they will complete the homosexual relationship, which it is possible Robin already knows they won’t.

  37. tammy saukko says:

    all of a sudden he is gay? I thought this show was based on batman? Penguin has never been gay in any shape or form

  38. Jane M. says:

    Penguin’s deep need for love and acceptance may be fueling his “love” for Ed, even if he is gay. Love transference can be an affliction of gay or straight people. In a way I’m hoping it is transference, because it is just another layer of Penguin’s insecurity, which makes this cunning psychopath so endearing. It would be a great way to introduce further insight into a complex character. And both sides, his viciousness and vulnerability, as well as the humor, keeps him interesting. Hopefully they will continue to showcase all sides of Penguin and not regulate him into just a “funny sidekick” mode. Don’t let him lose his vicious edge. Mad love for Penguin!

  39. Nothing is canon with this show. Gordon’s future wife is an evil psychopath. No way of fixing that unless they erase both Gordon and Barbara’s memories at the end of the series.

    • tjchurch2001 says:

      I agree with your opening comment that “nothing is canon” here, but disagree with everything you wrote after that.

      The reason(s) there is no accepted thing in the “Gotham” is/are: Even though he still has no part of the costume, they continue putting Bruce in what they seem to want us to believe is mortal danger. Also, between just the comic books (to say nothing of the films), they have dozens of characters who eventually become the same sidekick, hero, or villain.