Batwoman Boss Considered ‘Soap Opera’ Recast for ‘Hot Minute,’ Instead Chose ‘Reboot’ With New Character
A Bat-mystery has been solved.
Batwoman showrunner Caroline Dries has shed some light on the decision to not recast the role of Kate Kane, in the wake of Ruby Rose abruptly parting ways with the CW series, but instead create “a whole new character” to slip into the cape and cowl for Season 2.
As recently reported, Batwoman has put out a casting call for a new character (possibly code-)named “Ryan Wilder,” who is described as “likeable,” “goofy,” and a “highly skilled [but] wildly undisciplined” fighter. She will, hopefully sooner rather than later once Season 2 arrives in early 2021, come to adopt the vigilante persona of Batwoman.
A June 3 TVLine op-ed called into question the change-up, given how it will likely render meaningless so much of what was established during Season 1. Now Dries, in an ATX Festival At Home Q&A with fellow CW showrunner Julie Plec (of Legacies), spoke about the decision for the first time since Season 1 ended. [pmc_inline_gallery]
“To be honest with you, I did consider the ‘soap opera version’ [of recasting] for a hot minute, because selfishly we already had a couple episodes written, and transition-wise it would be seamless,” she told Plec. “But upon further reflection — and I think [Arrowverse EP] Greg [Berlanti] helped me make this call — he’s like, ‘I think we should just reboot Batwoman as a different character.'”
In addition to paying “respect to everything that Ruby [Rose] put into the Kate Kane character” during Season 1, Dries said, “it also helps the audience, because we’re not asking them to address ‘the elephant in the room'” by accepting a new face as the same person.
Dries went on to affirm that “Ryan Wilder” is “a whole new character who in her past was inspired by Batwoman, so she is going to take on the mantle,” adding that the scrappy twentysomething who lives in a van, with her plant, “is maybe not the right person at the time to be doing it, so that’s what makes it fun.”
Want scoop on Batwoman, or for any other show? Email InsideLine@tvline.com and your question may be answered via Matt’s Inside Line.
I still find all of this fairly stupid for the exact reasons TVLine laid out in their article this week. Literally every major character in the show has some sort of connection to Kate at this point. How do you magic that all away?
Have the new character wake up from a drug induced vision. Pretend the first season didn’t happen? Claim the first season was an alternate reality? I’m sure they can come up with something. Will it be something the audience likes? Probably not.
Except those solutions are easily as “soap opera” as recasting Kate Kane (your first two options are basically what ‘Dallas’ did when Patrick Duffy left for a season) so they presumably aren’t going to do any of that.
Instead they’re either going to shoe-horn a total stranger into the existing characters’ lives _or_ they’re going to get rid of most of the existing characters and storylines. The first option _can_ work, if combined with amazing writing, great cast chemistry and a lot of luck. The second kills the show IMO.
I honestly don’t get this, when the Deus Ex Machina of face swapping is already canon in the show. First Ep of new series Kate gets beaten to hell buy some new villain and Luke and Mary use Alice’s technique to give her a new face.
Personally I think the idea of the hero of the show permanently wearing a mask of someone else’s skin is way too creepy (though I suppose they can just say Lucius invented some artificial substitute). BUT they also have Crisis and the idea of a multiverse (sure, the Arrowverse is all one Earth _now_ but it’s still a way to have another Kate Kane appear – adult Beth came post-Crisis after all and not _that_ much time has passed since). Alternate versions of characters (and those alternates not always looking the same as the Earth-1 version) are established aspects of this specific show and the Arrowverse in general. There’s so little excuse to _not_ recast that I still can’t quite believe they’re going with a completely new character (like, literally don’t believe it – I still think the announcement might be a misdirect of some sort).
Is it all one Earth now though? That was my impression as well but with Star-Girl now I don’t know what is going on.
‘Stargirl’ isn’t currently in the Arrowverse as far as I know (even though a version of the JSA has been). The way I think they left it is, there are still other realities (Titans, Doom Patrol, Stargirl etc. are all still acknowledged to exist by the Arrow universe) BUT they’re not part of a connected multiverse and the Arrowverse characters are all now gathered on Earth-Prime with no way (currently) to travel to other Earths.
Maybe, it was just an idea based on what we’ve already seen, I’m not a writer so they could come up with something better. Just was a non-soapy way to explain Kate looking different.
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Regarding the multiverse, it still exists as Stargirl is on Earth-2, Titans on Earth-9 and Doom Patrol on Earth-21 amongst others. However Cisco said that his methods of travel between Earths no longer work post-Crisis, so they’ll probably bring that back at some point.
Thats a great idea it would make the most sense
I always liked Due Souths approach, they had the co lead ray, go deep undercover,ray 2, came in to take his spot so that his cover wasn’t blown, old cast was aware of change, didnt have to undo relationships, new ray could slowly evolve
The audience has accepted Ruby Rose’s decision to leave and have openly embraced the idea of recasting. I am a big fan of Dries, but if she and Berlanti doesn’t see that, then they have both lost touch with their audience.
100% agree. Vancouver has not reopened yet, so they have time to rethink this mistake.
How do you magic that all away? Two words: Barry Allen.
I hope Barry learned his lesson.
He did, but then a future Barry traveled back in time, messed everything up, and caused him to unlearn the lesson.
Dammit Barry!
Caroline Dries’ attempt at clarifying the decision has only made things worse.
Yeah Ruby made an excellent batwomen I’m not done season 1 yet so I can’t say much about the new girl but I waited for this show and only watched it because of Ruby Rose.
sorry but this doesn’t cut it, while there might be some issues with recasting they pale in comparison with doing a whole new character, you’re better off with just rebooting the series completely rather than trying to make this a continuation of season 1. i’ll continue watching, but I am not happy with this decision.
I think you hit it on the head. They are going to completely reboot the series. This wasn’t the out of the box hit that they expected. They wanted another Arrow, if not another Flash, but instead they got Super Girl. And I mean that from a ratings POV, not a quality POV.
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Given that they have got another 2-3 months before they can or will begin shooting, I am beginning to suspect that this will be a hard reboot. I know I said earlier that this “reboot” concept could be a trial balloon (which doesn’t seem to be going over too well with fans), and/or that it was part of a negotiation ploy by the producers. Both of which COULD still be true.
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But I am beginning to suspect a “Bobby from Dallas who died but not really it was all a dream” level of BS nonsense full on reboot.
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Cards on the table, I didn’t watch the series. My Sundays are full, and I did not care for Ruby Rose as a person, much less as an actress (she does not, and has not, treated coworkers well, and she is just bad at acting). But I did track the story. Sort of.
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The Crows stuff was crazy, as was the stuff with her dad. The sister stuff was good, and the world needs more Rachel Skarsten on TV. And I guess some of the rest of the Bat Team was reasonably popular. But everything else? Eh. And the show as a whole was, again, MEH. As such, I think they might/will reboot the entire sum-be-yotch. Like, as in, a complete tear down. They might bring back Skarsten, but she has a BF who works for Google, and IDK if that is at the Canada complex, or if it is in Cali. But this show put her on the radar of the industry, and she might be in line for many other gigs, if she were so inclined. She might be happy to be out of the show. And the rest of the show just didn’t really work. They might, legtimately, just start over, and pretend this year didn’t happen. As in, never referenced again, set on a new world, new continuity, whatever. New cast, etc. Any supporting characters could be shoe horned into the new world, with no real reference to the past.
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This is going to be bonkers. Again, unless they are dialed in on 1-2 possible soap style recasts, and those actresses are playing hardball contract wise.
Ratings wise, Batwoman was third on the network.
Besides The Flash, all the other Superhero shows on the CW are basically the same. Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow, Batwoman & Stargirl all have almost the exact same ratings. The Flash is the only one that clearly has the most.
And since the ratings typically go down over time, I have to think that the PTB weren’t thrilled with the BW ratings. From the get go, it had a more expensive cast than the other shows, which basically cast new actors, or “known” actors that weren’t as sought after (ie expensive) as the BW cast. The CW has been trying to tap into the WW magic with a female driven hero show (and no, I do not count the modestly rated, though fantastic, Legends), that is a big hit. They are losing Arrow, and the Flash is getting long in the tooth with a cast of actors who aren’t keen on being in every show (outside of the actual Flash). Legends barely makes a ripple ratings wise, and Super Girl is the most expensive show to run, with modest numbers to boot.
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I know that Flash is renewed for a couple of seasons, but they need to launch the next “hit” from the arrowverse, or the franchise could be extinct in 3 years. 4 at the outside.
A hard reboot will lose most of the existing audience _and_ create ill-will among many viewers i’d say (Alice and Mary are fan favourites from comments i’ve seen) – it’s basically cancellation by another name. _Maybe_ that’s what they’re doing but if so they’re not very smart IMO (sure, they’ve been dealt a bad hand but that’d be playing it in about the worst possible way).
Then they would want to alienate 99% of the current audience.
Typo… Then they would NOT want to alienate 99% of the audience by make a change the audience doesn’t want. Nobody who watches the show or would consider watching the show has a problem with Kate Kane. People were mixed on Ruby. Those that don’t like Kate likely have an issue with her being LGBTQ as opposed to the character. The Kanes and Waynes are interconnected and the show needs to stay on track. Alice will be far less impactful with Kate and Alice is one of the best villains to ever grace Arrowverse.
Personally, I don’t really care what the show does. But your discussion of the ratings is what I want to comment on. Nielson ratings (as in those people who watch a program on the TV on a broadcast network) is not the driving force of ratings for the CW. Most of the ratings for the CW are driven by streaming numbers, either on the CW website or on Netflix. Since we don’t see the streaming numbers, it is impossible to know whether a show is doing well or not. For instance, given the Neilson numbers, Dynasty should never have lasted beyond its first season; but I have heard that it’s a big hit internationally on Netflix. So the more telling point will be how the numbers go after the start of a new season, but we may never know because we don’t get the streaming numbers.
But I think the producers are FINE with “losing” existing fans. I think THEY think that the new show will get a lot of people to sample it. Because, let’s face it, more people stopped watching the show over the course of its 1st season than were still watching it as the season ended. I think there is a good chance that a hard reboot would get the same number of fans that sampled the pilot ep to tune in for the reboot. Just out of curiosity. And they have time to get this correct. For reals, they don’t have to shoot a single ep for the rest of this calendar year. They have time, and have had time for a few weeks now, for the writers room to work on a reboot. They can tinker with the plot, concept, cast, direction, etc. Final scripts aren’t needed anytime soon. And the crew and locations are in place. So all they need are scripts, and people to act out those scripts. Usually, the need for new eps by Oct, or even Feb, would doom a big money production like this. But they don’t need the eps soon, so they have time to work on this. And one has to wonder how sudden this was. It sounds like there were problems on the set (not that anyone was a problem, just that it wasn’t a happy set), so they may have been working on this for months.
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And, again, some elements of the old show would be back. Alice would still work, and would the bat team. But other parts of the show could be completely reworked.
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I know I said complete reboot in my OG post, but I should have qualified it. There will be characters and general themes/settings from the first season, but large aspects of the show/plot/theme will change.
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It sort of seems like they may be going for a funnier, Flash or LOT tone, which could work.
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But, again, this could still be a negotiation tactic. If one of what has to be a very small number of replacement actresses (and they probably have 1-2 ideal replacements, and 1-2 beyond that who they would take if they HAD to do so) is dragging their feet, this is how the producers combat that. For all we know, the small number of tier 1 replacements have the same representation, which means that they won’t compete on price. Even then, of those 2-3 top options, there is 1 that the production staff would prefer. And if she knows it, and is playing hard ball, they’ll have to combat that, somehow, and this is how they’d do it. If, or more likely WHEN, she blinks, the PTB can say that the fan outrage lead to a simple replacement (which was the easiest solution to this problem). Unless they secretly WANT a complete tear down.
I had another theory… if you don’t recast, it opens the door to Ruby Rose returning, even if only for a short stint (or a few).
A complete reboot isn’t really an option, as the series already exists within a larger extended universe. Were it a stand-alone, then sure. As it is, it would completely screw up the larger continuity.
They could just have an alternate universe ‘Batwoman’ that becomes a stand-alone show but with the implication that the existing Batwoman continuity carried on (although the other Arrowverse shows obviously couldn’t feature it in crossovers etc. – maybe barring e.g. an appearance by Alice, Mary or Luke). It’s a bad idea IMO but that’s one way it could work – completely disengage the ‘Batwoman’ TV show from the Arrowverse (if they’re going the hard reboot route i’d much rather they _really_ went for it and had something like an Elseworlds series featuring Batwoman – that’s probably the only kind of hard reboot i’d watch).
Well, that would kill the crossover with Lois and superman they have planned.
I still don’t get why they’re going this route.
This “helps” the audience? Alice’s current raison d’être is her relationship with her twin sister. Jacob’s current chase of his own vigilante daughter, the building of the bat team, the Justice League, Kara, “Bruce Wayne” returning…I rather have the soap opera change then saying “so ignore everything we did in season 1 and then watch us try to write OUT of this corner.”
The frustrating thing for me is there’s also absolutely no need for a “soap opera” change with a bit of imagination. This is an established _fantasy_ universe where we’ve literally already had a multiverse alternate of one of the main characters _and_ established that multiverse alternates don’t always look exactly alike. There’s no need for an unremarked upon recasting or a “Pam in the shower” moment in any SF&F universe, to a competent writer an “elephant in the room” can actually be a _feature_ in genre fiction. Why not make the new actor a Kate Kane held over somehow from another Earth for instance (an example this not-a-writer came up with in about 30 seconds) ? It allows them to keep most/all of the existing characters, some of the existing storylines _and_ get new stories out of everyone adjusting (or not) to this “Kate Kane” that isn’t their Kate Kane.
I agree with TV Line’s previous article. This is stupid. I read several volumes of Batwoman comics to prep for the series. The series had potential to make Alice into the anti-hero of the comics and their dad into an ally. But it looses all meaning with a new Batwoman.
Did you catch the “ a whole new character who in her past was inspired by Batwoman”…. are they doing a time jump? Because batwomen is new and it’s hardly at this point could be inspired in their “past”
Meh, “her past” could have been six months ago. (Remember, there was a small time jump around Episode 4 to catch up to “Elseworlds.”) “Ryan” was a drug runner, so maybe with Batwoman’s rising she “saw the error of her ways” and cleaned up her act.
That would be even worse, because it would confirm no one from the original cast is returning.
Such a disappointing idea, us fans are not stupid and we can deal with a soap opera switch.
Kate Kane is Batwoman, I dont care which actress plays her but as long as the actress is playing Kate.
Kate is very popular in the comics and removing her from her first live action show is ridiculous.
All the connections she has with the other characters in the show will now be gone and will mean nothing.
Why would you choose to start all over again when you can just easily recast the character and not replace her?
I’m sure this will definitely affect the ratings and it will drop enormously.
I loved this show and now it will be ruined by the sounds of it.
Or they could have people from (I don’t watch the show) Gotham come to a different woman every season. Do what Buffy kind of did at the end of the series and have it tie into Gotham for guest stars. Perhaps if both shows are owned by each other turn Batwoman into an every woman. Sort of like AHS does so each season they help someone transform. If the CW wants to tie in Buffy for a retro episode they could have Buffy and Batgirl cross over.
Yeah, I was thinking about this myself. The most ambitious solution would definitely be to turn ‘Batwoman’ into an anthology show where some/most of the cast return but playing different characters or alternate versions of the same character, in different versions of Gotham (past, present and future). Basically an Elseworlds series for Batwoman, meaning you can do pretty much anything (Batman has at various times been a vampire, hunted Jack the Ripper in 19th century Gotham, been a Green Lantern, crossed over with Judge Dredd, Predator etc.). Trouble is, it might work on paper but in reality it’s probably a logistical and financial nightmare (new sets/costumes/etc. every year, no multi-season arcs, no more crossovers with other Arrowverse shows or shared universe in general, no accumulation of character histories to generate stories etc.). Bold choice though, i’d watch for sure.
The show’s first few episodes take place before the 2018 cross over event meaning that Kate was in the costume for 2 years overall. So enough time where she wasn’t “new.”
What a bunch of BS. The audience is smarter than they give us credit for. I was contemplating dropping the show anyway, now I have a reason to.
Dangit, I thought all this backlash would make them wise up and change their minds.
Season 1 was great! It was on track to become one of The CW’s best DC shows and now it could potentially be one of the worst.
to be fair I don’t think this automatically makes season 2 a bad season, the story could still be good, what is is going to do to is make the transition from season 1 to 2 a mess.
Their problem is that they’re in the middle of a storyline, and no amount of explanation is going to make a completely new character look anything but shoehorned in. This might be theoretically doable if the first season had come to an ending, but it didn’t, and so it’s going to automatically start off on a false note.
honestly this deus ex machina new characters is worst solution if he really want use replacment for KK they already have them on the show Julia Sophie or Mary be good enough to put cape and become new batwoman this be simple story of revenge but now they create so huge mess that i have no idea how he resolve that flash erse reality ?entire first season in dalas style be just nightmare of new main character?? what with alice and fake batman story what with team batwomen and so on so on
And with Sophie, Julia or Mary in the cowl, you still have the connection with Alice and what happened in season 1. I’m really not happy about this decision but I’m willing to check out at least the first few episodes. And I hate how they refer to recasting Kate as “soap opera” as if many prime time shows have not gone that route and been successful.
And even if it IS soap opera style – soaps are wildly successful and have managed to run characters for decades and audiences are able to keep up with numerous cast changes. No reason to insult soaps when copying their formula; it works for them, it can work for prime time tv too
Thank you. The “soap opera” statement was an unnecessary jab in order to make their solution seem smart. Not only is it not smart, but recasting roles with or without an explanation is hardly a concept only known to soaps, as a recent TVLine article already showed. If we can get a new Aunt Viv on the Fresh Prince who was several shades lighter in complexion than the original and nobody ask her about bleaching treatments, then they can get another Kate Kane.
Hopefully none of the other main cast members lose their jobs because their characters no longer have deep ties to the title hero. I would hate to see the showrunners’ decision to “respect everything that Ruby [Rose] put into the Kate Kane character” come at the expense of other actors.
This.
This is complete backward. Recasting Kate Kane would be a speed bump, and fans would get over it. DITCHING Kate Kane altogether is a slap in the face. The “Soap Opera” approach is exactly what they should have done, and kept Kate Kane alive. Kate Kane IS Batwoman. Imagine making up a whole new character and calling him Batman instead of just recasting Bruce Wayne. Ruby Rose wasn’t great in the role in the first place, and I was 100% open to giving the new actress a shot. But if they’re gonna throw Kate and her fans under a bus like this, I won’t bother.
So there is no elephant in the room by Kate suddenly disappearing?
There is a reason why soap operas recast characters rather than bringing in a new typish character to take over. It rarely every works. Sure it does sometimes but more often than not a recast is going to make the transition easier.
Not to mention this will immediately turn off viewers who tuned in for Kate Kane she’s Batwoman this is a new character with no history at all in the comics verse honestly this is a terrible idea.
I know I for one will probably tune out now. My main reason for watching was because I liked the Kate character, I didn’t much care who played her.
I agree this is so stupid KATE KANE is Bateman. New character I can’t believe they would go this route sorry but f Ruby Rose if she is the reason they are putting a new character in the show So Dumb………
So “for a hot minute,” they almost made the right call. Good to know!
I see two possible scenarios happening:
1. This is all a dodge of some sort. “Ryan Wilder” is either Kate with a new face for story reasons or simply a fake name they’re using while recasting the role.
2. Over the summer they realize how foolish it is to reboot the show and simply decide to keep going with a new actor playing Kate Kane.
Either way, I don’t see “Ryan Wilder” happening.
Yep, i’m still kind of thinking that ‘Ryan Wilder’ is a misdirect of some sort. It just feels like such a bad idea that it can’t be their actual choice. That or they have some amazing way of integrating her into the existing world that feels totally organic and preserves the existing cast and some of the existing storylines – personally I can’t see how but i’m not a writer (let alone a room full of them, brainstorming ideas).
Good to see the CW is gunning hard early for the “stupidest TV choices of the 20’s” award. So many show runners leave it too late to make completely idiotic, show-destroying choices like this. Bravo.
I’m hoping this “Ryan Wilder” character ends up being Cassandra Cain or even Stephanie Brown, just someone from the comics. Will she be the new Paragon? Thank goodness there won’t be ANOTHER crisis.
Okay, that is fine but is the show going to take the steps to make it work (getting rid of Kate’s supporting cast/plot lines to introduce the storylines and characters that exist in our new lead’s world) or are they going to plop Miss Ryan here in Kate’s role and try to fit her in the stories that they wanted to tell with Kate. Because I feel like it will be the latter.
Already said it once, but I’ll say it again–a truly idiotic decision. Don’t know why I’m surprised though; this is the woman who presided over The Vampire Diaries during arguably it’s worst years creatively.
I didn’t realize it was her until this article – but it now makes soooooo much sense. How does this woman – who went out of her way to make Vampire Diaries so painfully straight – get to be the show runner for a queer lead show.
May have something to do with the fact that she’s lesbian/queer herself(which makes what you pointed out about TVD even more odd).
Still a dumb decision. Still a disservice to Kate Kane. You arelady screwd her up and you had teh chance to fix it, with a good actress. I stopped watching a long time ago, glad I did. Waste.
It’s ridiculous. I think the audience wouldn’t have seen as big of an elephant in the room as they think we would have. We all could have very easily have understood that it’s a new actress. So, all that time we invested in the first season is moot now.Is anyone who was already on the show still even going to be there? I already didn’t even watch each episode every week. I sometimes got caught up with a couple episodes at a time. I don’t know that I have the desire to put any energy into investing in this change. Not to mention that if they do have to do a time jump, that’s going to screw up the timeline in relation to the other Arrowverse shows.
I think this is a PC move. I have no doubt when they cast the new character, she will be black and probably a transgender. I’d rather this Ryan character be a version of Batgirl since in the comics there were other women who was Batgirl besides Barbara. She could be a side kick to Batwoman and take over the identity after Kate finishes things with Alice. The main story of Batwoman is how Alice torments her. They’re dumping all of the shows main story for this crap. Definitely passing and still sadden this is the route they’re going.
You’re trying to troll, but I’d watch the crap out of a Black trans Batwoman show so jokes on you
I’m not trolling. I’m stating the obvious. This is a PC move. Ryan will not be a white character because of everything going on. I will accept a black Batwoman as long as she’s Kate Kane. They need to finish the Alice story out of respect to the fans. Batwoman is the first comic book superhero I followed because of how twisted Alice is. To not see this on screen is a slap in the face to fans.
Well that’s a much reasonable response. I’m glad you’d accept a Black Batwoman :). More diversity makes for better stories – and we want better stories right?? And ya, she must be Kate Kane!
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(Glad you’re not a troll :)
Personally, I’m a bit insulted the powers-that-be aren’t giving proper credit to the viewers who have been loyal to this show from it’s debut. They dont think we can handle or tolerate a “soap opera” switch in characters? Have you watched Days of Our Lives lately? It’s standard procedure and we handle it very well, thank you. Anything is better than a complete series reboot. Bad decision. It’s going to be very difficult for me to get into this new format in 2021. Just sayin’
Still think they should just recast Kate. I might change my mind after I see the new character, but for now it just sound like terrible idea
I agree.
Why would the soap opera style recast be a problem? Supergirl did it with Alura and we didn’t hear an explaination.
Heck, Dynasty did it three ways by using plastic surgery for Alexis and by killing off and just ignoring it for Cristal.
Your audience are not that dumb. Once it was announced Ruby has left, of course they’ll understand the recast.
They are obviously planning on hiring a African-American actress, which would have been fine at the start. But now it makes no sense that her family is white, unless now she’s adopted which was never the case last season and changes all family dynamics. Hense the need for a completely new character.
Dude/Dudette please stop with the trolling … noone here talking ’bout race, ‘cept You. Most of us here want them to stay with same character, I do care about race of recast but I don’t think I can accept as a new character (not even comic book related) as Batwoman.
PLEASE JUST RECAST KATE KANE
Alura was a very minor character only seen in a few episodes.Kate Kane/Batwoman is the star /lead of the show .So two totally different scenarios there.Yes Dynasty recast Cristal 3 times and they’re laughed at for it or thought it must be mess bits to have to do that especially that many times.
Uh, she may have not been the lead of the show, but calling Alura a “very minor character” is whack–she was one of the big bads of the first season for chrissakes.
Alura was Karas mom & has been in 8 or less episodes=minor characters.Astra was a villain in s1 but again she was killed off by episode 8 or 9 so not that big of a villain & minor character.