Once Upon a Time Recap: Orphan Black

Once Upon a Time Emma Lily Reunite

The fates of Emma “The Savior” Swan and Lily “The Anti-Savior” Page were forever entwined and always shall be, the Sorcerer made clear at the outset of this Sunday’s Once Upon a Time.

With that flashback to an apologetic Apprentice out of the way, we find Emma at the diner declaring to loved ones her determination to go after Gold, who manipulated Cruella’s demise at the Savior’s hand. Emma gets no support from her audience, who fear her descent into darkness, but finds a champion in Maleficent — in trade for the onetime bounty hunter tracking down her daughter Lilith. All Mal knows is that her baby wound up in Minnesota aka the same state where Emma first met Lily. No sooner does that light bulb go off, Emma is at the library working the microfiche like a boss, quickly finding a 30-year-old, out-of-state baptism announcement for wee Lilith, who thankfully posed with her star birthmark showing. Entering, Regina notes, “Ain’t fate a bitch?” Likening the Evil Queen’s adoption of the Savior’s son to Emma’s own small world, Regina suggests they “make today the day we both beat fate” by teaming to find Lily and save Robin from Zelena/”Marian.” Underscoring the Sorcerer’s words, Emma discovers that Lily’s last known address is Lowell, Mass., a mere half-hour outside Boston where Emma spent her own adulthood!

Their first stop is a flop house where some guy reports that Lily died in a car crash — news that gets him a near-pummeling from the increasingly hair-trigger Emma. Back in the Bug, Emma denies she’s going bad, contenting that she merely feels guilt for her darkness being assigned to li’l Lily. A wolf in the road stops the Bug in its tracks and leads Emma and Regina to a nearby diner, where Emma discovers Lily working as a waitress who thankfully shows her star birthmark as she pours coffee. Lily doesn’t at first recognize Emma (why, was Young Miss Swan played by a Latina?), but once the connection is made, she shrugs off the suggestion that her lifelong problems are Emma’s fault, and then lies that she has a daughter and husband. Emma’s BS detector pings, but just as she and Regina find in Lily’s trailer home proof that she knows everything about her origin, Storybrooke and the Charmings who effed up her fate, the waitress is speeding off in their Bug. Emma in turn steals a sweet Chevelle, and she and Regina are in hot pursuit.

Eventually Emma cuts off Lily and the gals get into it roadside, trading punches and shoves and threats until Emma has her old BFF at gunpoint. Lily taunts Emma to pull the trigger, warning that if she is let go, she will punish her parents. Regina in turn cautions the Savior, “If you cross this line, the journey back isn’t easy.” Emma offers Lily not a bullet to the bean but help up off the ground, saying she won’t push her away this time — as she did years ago in flashback, when Lily shattered Emma’s idyllic teen life by stealing her adoptive fam’s vacation fund.

Next stop: New York, Once Upon a Time Emma Lily Reunitewhere Regina joyfully reunites with Robin and warns him that Marian is not who she says she is. “Marian” at first plays dumb, but then chooses to gloat by returning to Zelena form — after which, Robin rebuffs Regina’s request to leave, because he “can’t.” Because Zelena is pregnant.

Elsewhere in the episode:
* The Charmings apologize to Maleficent for the whole damning your dragon baby egg and lobbing it into a portal thing, but Mal warns: It’s Lily you should be afraid of. Because, “If I won’t forgive you, why would she?”
* Rumple recruits his rival, the thief Will Scarlett, to steal Belle’s heart from Regina’s office. Once Upon a Time Emma Lily ReuniteOnce the pumper has been procured, Rumple returns it to Belle, saying that it’s now Will’s job to protect it: “I’ve proven unworthy.”
* At the close of the Lily/Emma flashbacks, we learn that a strange old guy with an unruly beard (aka the Sorcerer’s Apprentice) approached young Lily on a bus and clued her in in her fantastical origin (as well as that of the heirloom necklace her newborn self apparently had with her while gestating inside the egg?). “The deck has been stacked against you,” the strange old guy with the unruly beard on the bus informs the young girl. “I owe you the truth.”

What did you think of the episode “Lily”?

Comments are monitored, so don’t go off topic, don’t frakkin’ curse and don’t bore us with how much your coworker’s sister-in-law makes per hour. Talk smart about TV!

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  1. kat says:

    Oh good. A rape baby. I’m sure these writers will handle this storyline with respect and tact. They have such a great concept of consent.

    • Sylvia says:

      Honestly I enjoyed the episide until that point. Don’t necessarily agree with the rape thing but hey we all see things differently but how are suppose to honestly wrap our head around Robin not even batting an eye when Regina said Zelena killed Marion; he knows it’s Zelena not Marion and he says he can’t leave her? Even for a TV show that is way over the top.
      As far as the LIly episode, I mostly enjoyed it but I dont get why suddenly everyone trusts each other? Emma trusting Lily even though she knows she lies and lies and has a dark heart; trusting Malificent that she isn’t still working with Gold?
      And doesn’t anyone see the damage this author thing has done to everyone? That is why for 3 seasons we were told you can’t mess with the book?
      I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at this point?
      Actually the one thing I did like too is finally we see there may be some hope for RB- I hate how that relationship was destroyed.

      • kat says:

        It is unequivocally rape. It’s called rape by fraud or rape by deception – the rapist gains the consent of their victim but they gain it through fraudulent means. Robin consented to sex with his wife, Marian, not the witch wearing her face. Zelena deliberately deceived him to gain access to his life and his bed. That is rape.

        • Me says:

          The courts have trouble with this kind of rape, and every state does not have rape by deception laws. Mainly because if two people meet at a bar, one person misrepresents themselves, and they both consent to sleep together, it is hard to prove in the court of law that deception happened. Also most of these laws are from pre 1900 and are met to protect men from having their wives become pregnant with another mans child.

          Also lets not forget that this is a friggin TV show!!! There are fairies that are nuns, and people can literally rip each others hearts out!! Calm down. Enjoy the messed up relationships on the program, and know that the show is about finding happily ever afters for the characters.

          • kat says:

            I don’t care about our court system’s inability to handle rape in a competent way. I’m not asking for Zelena to be tried in court. Rape is a MORAL evil. What Zelena did is rape but it will most likely never be acknowledged as such by the show, because these are the same writers who don’t think Regina raped Graham by having sex with him while she controlled his heart. As for it being a TV show, if you don’t like using your brain that much when you watch, great. But I actually engage with the media I consume, and I’m not OK with characters being raped when the writers won’t even acknowledge that’s what’s happening. It contributes to rape culture, it normalizes things that should not be normalized.

          • Rigerty says:

            You are not really asking someone who made it very clear that they see what happened on their tv tonight as rape to “enjoy” it, are you? I don’t understand how people are honestly arguing this topic to begin with, but to say we should just shrug it off and enjoy it is pretty messed up.

          • Jeri says:

            This is a different situation to two people meeting in a bar and lying about being a model and a talent agent before having deceptive, but agreed-upon sex.

            This is more like one identical twin fooling the other identical twin’s partner into sleeping with him. It’s gross and creepy, and law or not, that’s rape.

            Considering the show’s history with this issue (Regina/Graham), it’s not something I’m so willing to overlook.

          • Delirious says:

            “The courts have trouble with this kind of rape” – yeah, it always gets messy when RL courts get a case involving face stealing, or shapeshifting.

        • carrionne says:

          Yeah I agree. It’s as if the twin of someone you’re in a relationship with pretended to be that person in order to get you to have sex with them. It’s rape. But it seems to be happening a lot on tv lately. There was this british show about king Arthur, merlin and crew a while back (not “Merlin”, it was called something else. maybe Camelot.) where a king got a spell to look like a rival king so he could sleep with the rival king’s wife. When she ended up pregnant,she ran from her then husband and married her rapist (but gave up the baby, Arthur, for some reason). More recently, on Grimm, Adalind pretended to be Juliette to sleep with Nick (and also ended up pregnant). Do show producer not completly get the concept of rape? It’s like they think it’s okay if magic is involved and the victim is enjoying it.

          • Jonah Scher says:

            “No one” thinks it’s OK, genius. It’s just that rape occurs on TV shows. There’s even a TV show mostly devoted to it (Special Victims Unit). I lol’d. Of course it’s wrong to have sex with someone by deception, and yes, it is rape. Non-consensual sexual intercouse. What you and your cadre seem to be complaining about is the reaction. Maybe they should have had an exchange like this: Zelena: I raped you. Robin: No…no. Emma: Actually, under New York law, she’s correct. Say it with me: awkward! If you’ve got an issue with his reaction to the news, I’ve got something to say. Everyone’s reaction to sexual assault is different, and depends on the type of assault, the circumstances surrounding it, and the individuals involved. The popular conception that people must collapse in a state of shock has actually harmed some rape cases, because jurors think that an insufficiently traumatized victim must not have been raped. That being said, I would call Robin’s reaction pretty traumatized.

        • Lulu says:

          Rape is a very serious thing and rape culture is a big deal. However, I think you are taking this a little too seriously. It’s a television show. They are doing this for the shock and the plot. Not everything needs to be argued, and not everything needs to be taken so seriously.

          Simmah down now.

          • Wow says:

            Thank you!!!! It’s a bloody fictional show, why does it need to be dissected? My goodness, people take the fun out of everything. No one is celebrating rape culture, I guess these same people find issue with Disney movies and old fairy tales.

    • Caroline says:

      Just like in Grimm with Andalind and Nick. What’s with all these pregnant by deception storylines going on?

    • Gerald says:

      Oy. Enough with the assumptions. We don’t know how this pregnancy will be handled. The story hasn’t played out yet. Maybe it will be addressed. I like to think that Robin is also under some magical spell because he didn’t react as horrified as he should have. And maybe Zulena isn’t actually pregnant. It could be just a ploy. That is my hope.

    • Pasdevos Affaires says:

      Honestly, I am about to stop watching the show! Tired of still watching hoping in vain for great storylines! Season 1 was a masterpiece and I could not get enough! Now I can tell you that i nyears from now everybody will be bloodrelated. I am not big on ethical topics but last night I had the feeling to be forced to see a Maury paternity show. Disgusting!

      • sanchopanza says:

        What seems to be happening is a jump the shark situation. The writers are either struggling to come up with twists and turns – which are all very well but not every other episode – or they think we *like* it. Never mind working out a plot, just think of something to throw in, mix it up and we’ll figure out how it can be resolved later. So far this season we’ve had to deal with resurrecting Maleficent, giving her a daughter, pulling in 2 more villains, *and* Lily – which makes me wonder if it was just so they could write backstories – *and* Zelena. And they were stuck with her so they had to have a complication – oh boy, she’s pregnant! And as for making Charming and Snow be dastardly, that’s pathetic. Hm, maybe that’s where they jumped the shark.

    • Lizo says:

      My thoughts exactly. And I’m out. I’ve been barely hanging on as a viewer and this was it; this broke the camels back as it were and I’m done.

    • Lizo says:

      Also kat, thanks for defining your position so fiercely in the comments here. Rape apologists drive me crazy and I was all prepared to start fighting the battle, but you’ve already done it here. *high five*.

  2. Mikaela says:

    A&E why you do this? Why?

  3. MOLLS says:

    I cant believe they actually had a rape victim state they HAVE to stay with their RAPIST for a baby. How disgusting is that for a ‘family’ show. All for a (bad) soap twist that doesn’t even make sense!!!
    I bet they don’t ever bring up the rape aspect. Its a disgrace, and I don’t ship Outlaw Queen!!!

    • Wen says:

      I totally agree. This is so gross, I know it’s not exactly a family show but implied rape and actually have a rape baby for soap drama is another thing. I am so mad, if they can’t make this right I don think I will be back for season 5 :(

      • powerturtle90sdudemon says:

        The sad thing is I spoke to people on Twitter who tried denying it was rape including using a source then be told “That’s a good point but it wasn’t by force therefore it isn’t rape”

      • Anima says:

        Probably will get swept under the rug just like Regina and Graham was. I’m still hoping it’s all a lie, though I can’t say I have much respect for Robin either way. The guy has been way too easy for Zelena.

    • B says:

      Hopefully, he doesn’t mean that he has to stay with her in that sense. Yuck.

      It’s more complicated when the baby is physically inside the rapist instead of the rape victim. Robin can’t just leave Zelena in New York and spend the rest of his life without knowing what’s become of his child. They’re going to have to knock her out and keep her under guard until she gives birth or something. Then they can exile her from Storybrooke permanently (without the Snow Queen’s scroll) or just disintegrate her.

      • pinky says:

        That’s a good point…rape or not, the baby is physically inside her, and if he wants any say on the baby’s life he has to stay in hers (since Zelena is unlikely to be taken to court and Robin is unlikely to be given sole custody)

        • B says:

          I’d certainly give him sole custody if I were the Storybrooke authorities. Zelena isn’t what I’d call a fit mother. It’s not quite the same as taking Maleficent’s child away from her; Zelena is less stable and conceived as part of a revenge ploy. I wouldn’t put it past her to threaten harm to the child to get what she wants.

    • Jonah Scher says:

      Molls, I agree with you that this is can seem pretty horrible. And given that you seem to admit below that you have had a personal experience in this regard, I don’t want to delegitimize what you went through. That being said, as I understand it, he certainly would not have trusted Zelena to be a good parent. But see, here’s the thing. Being raped, that is not a choice. On the other hand, there are people who make the choice to keep a child born out of rape. That IS their choice, and that deserves to be respected. Staying with the rapist, if they do so, is NOT a choice I would approve of, but I would not be too judgmental of people who decide to do it (of course, IRL there is often a lot of intimidation going on). Robin wants to protect his child (well, fetus), because he absolutely does not trust Zelena to take care of it. Given that she is an evil witch, his fears are probably justified. Honestly, that is a choice I can respect. (There is the matter of Zelena’s agency, but let’s not even go there).

    • B says:

      Or they could use magic to transfer the baby to Regina, but that might be too weird even for this show.

    • alex says:

      well it is his baby, even if the mother is an evil woman it’s still his child and he likely wants to ensure their safety.

  4. LADY_in_MD says:

    I don’t know how to feel about the pregnancy i pray that this is all just fake to keep robin away from Regina please let that be what it is!

  5. Boiler says:

    Not sure I like the Zelena baby idea but where are everyone getting rape baby??

    • Jeri says:

      Robin didn’t consent to having sex with Zelena. He consented to having sex with Marian. Since he didn’t have sex with the person he consented to have sex with, but with someone else, it’s rape. If Zelena’s pregnant, the baby was conceived while Robin was unconsentingly having sex with Zelena.

    • MOLLS says:

      If you don’t know who you’re having sex with you cant consent to it. Robin was raped as he thought he was sleeping with Marian. But instead was being raped by her murderer.

    • Me says:

      My best guess if because zelena tricked robin, by being his dead wife. I’m not really seeing rape here. More a horrible relationship based on lies.

      • Rigerty says:

        It’s not a relationship. There is nothing consensual about this. Nothing. At. All. Zelena pretended to be someone she is not, fully aware that she was tricking Robin into something he never would have wanted had she not taken over Marian’s body and let him to believe she’s his formerly-dead wife. Marian, the real one, and Robin had a relationship because they consensually made the choice to be together. Robin and Zelena-posing-as-Marian did not.

      • MOLLS says:

        Your attitude disgusts me.
        Rape is rape, not a relationship!

        • Me says:

          calm. Down. It is a tv show. This is a stupid plot twist.

          And for the record: rape is wrong. It is wrong in all forms, from date rape to stranger rape. In working with victims, I see how much it affects their lives and relationships. So don’t assume you known anything about me or my views from a single comment on a message board about a fantasy show.

          • MOLLS says:

            As a survivor myself I suggest you stay well away any victim. Your attitude reflects all that is wrong with our societies attitudes towards sexual crimes.

          • Temperance says:

            And MOLLS is completely overboard and needs more therapy. Geesh. (Yup, I went there, and don’t mind a bit. Get some perspective.)

          • Olivia says:

            @Molls as another survivor, I have a hard time considering this as rape. Rape is violent, it’s forceful, it destroys someone physically and mentally. It prevents you from seeing yourself as “clean” for a long time. It makes it hella hard to give yourself to someone you love again, even if you do love them with all your heart because your body has its own memory and suddenly prompts you to cry in the middle of gentle foreplay. It makes it nearly impossible to enjoy a passionate (read: a little rough) making out session even if you’re all ready and willing to have sex with your SO. It creates physical reflexes you don’t want to have and that makes the person you love feel sad, insecure and guilty because they think they’re somehow responsible for it even if theyv’e been very gentle and even if you tell them it’s not their fault. And it can last for years before you even begin to rebuild a normal love life again, and that is if your partner is patient and strong enough to go through it all for and with you.

            TL;DR: What I’m trying to say is do not even try to call it a rape. Has Robin been physically AND morally deceived? YES. Definitely YES. Has he been “raped”? NO. Because if HE has been raped… what thousands, if not millions, of us rape survivors have we been? I surely don’t think what this fictional dude and I went through is equal. If you think so that’s your prerogative but I suggest you seek help immediately because something is very wrong here.

            On an unrelated note: I’ve read out of curiosity because of the title of the recap only, since this show has become so ridiculous I had no reason to keep watching but geez, it seems to s**ck even harder as time goes by. I don’t know if it’s funny or sad.

          • Fran says:

            @Olivia- I am also a survivor and while I don’t think anyone is comparing this storyline to what survivors have been through, there is no doubt that it is still rape. Rape is not always a violent act and it comes in many different forms. I don’t think the show intends for this to be portrayed as such but it is definitely alarming that’s it’s treated so carelessly.

      • Jonah Scher says:

        You’d better call it rape (it sort of is, but that’s not the point). After all, if it’s not rape, it can’t be traumatizing, right? Right?

  6. Rigerty says:

    Pretty sure this show jumped the shark tonight. Apart from some of the more “oh, how convenient” writing choices some other aspects were just plain offensive. Agnes Bruckner is a good actress, but she is white. Young Lily as portrayed by Nicole Muñoz is not. Having them both in the same episode, playing the same character side by side, didn’t make it easier to look past this casting decision. And I’m not sure what they think they are doing with that horrible Zelena story, but it’s once again OUAT casually introducing rape with likely no intention to address it as such and topping it off with writing that most soap operas would frown at. Terrible, plain terrible. The Rumple stuff too. It’s hard for me to see why I should continue watching.

    • B says:

      The irony is that Nicole Muñoz’s character in the Syfy TV series “Defiance”, Christie McCawley Tarr, has explicitly told someone, “My skin isn’t pink.”

      The only halfway decent possible explanation I’ve seen suggested by a fan is that they didn’t tell the person who cast Maleficent’s adult daughter that said daughter was the grown-up version of Nicole’s character.

    • aurat22 says:

      At this point I am hoping they write both Rumple and Hook out, so Robert C and Colin O can get new roles on shows that are more consistently written. Sorry JMHO

      • Sylvia says:

        I have to agree with you there. I love Colin O’Donoghue and think the creators were bang on wanting Hook and Emma as a true love couple. I enjoyed Hook as a character in seasons 2 and 3 but this season, he exists solely to continue to tell Emma how he feels and and not get anything back. Hook challenged Emma in season 3 and I loved that type of interacting between. They have not done his character any favours this season. I was excited to see them develop as a couple but it’s one continuous issue after another. So much emphasis has been put on the Villians and Regina and Emma that all other characters are de-evolving, IMO?

        • aurat22 says:

          I’m less concerned about the couple’s aspect now, just disappointed at how acting talent is being wasted by such inconsistent storytelling. I think the real problem for me is they expanded their cast and their storylines far beyond what a one hour show once a week is capable of handling. That’s why I quit watching soaps years ago. Too many players on the canvas leads to all characters & plots being underdeveloped.

          Going to do my best now to step away from commenting any further. Don’t want to hang around and be a black cloud for those still enjoying the show. At the end of the day it is after all just a piece of fiction & I need to start concentrating more on my own real life more.

          • Pasdevos Affaires says:

            Same here! I stopped watching soaps long ago and I loved OUAT first season because it was full of mysteries, and so much potential with archetypes nicely used to create atmosphere. Now OUAT is just a same old, same old, soap opera! NOt what I signed for …

        • aurat22 says:

          Forgot to add thanks for replying Sylvia. Agree with you that seasons two and three were lots of fun. Best to all.

      • Pasdevos Affaires says:

        I totaly agree with you! Carlisle great skills were the main reason why this show has known such an impetus in season 1. I wish they release him from the so we can enjoy his fantastic acting repertoire in shows that match his genius! Rumpel/Gold presence on screen is poor due to poor storyline! I guess A&K are taking fandoms for granted.

  7. abby Sellers says:

    I saw the baby thing coming last week… So that wasn’t a shock.

    Robin Hood a rape victim? Really? It’s a fantasy show, where people can magically become someone else. Let’s not read into it. I admit the plot lines get unnecessarily twisted and contrived at times… But not that twisted. Sometimes it’s as simple as what it looks like–the Wicked Witch of the West using a glamour spell to trick Robin Hood into thinking she’s Maid Marian.

    • Rigerty says:

      That’s precisely why it is rape. Robin didn’t consent to having sex with the Wicked Witch. He never would have touched her without the glamor and she knew it. Meaning she tricked him into sleeping with her by pretending to be someone he cares about. I’m sorry, but that’s rape. There’s no way around it. Please let’s not excuse this. I don’t even want to imagine what’ll happen if we let writers get away with such things.

      • Olivia says:

        I’ve never seen anyone scream “rape!” when in Buffy a freaky-friday-Buffy-looking Faith slept with Riley. I wonder why. *hint: because unless he’s been forced to, it’s not*

        • B says:

          Actually, many people have called that rape and criticized the show for not calling it that.

        • Fran says:

          It is rape if a person does not, or can not, give consent to sex. You’re likening rape to just the violent and forceful act, which is just not the case. Incidentally, I do remember people being upset about that as well.

        • Maro says:

          Wrong. About both. It’s rape. And that Buffy story received a lot of criticism in response too.

    • laurelnev says:

      AND people/magical entities can magically reproduce w/ no fathers (cough dwarves, cough Mal.)

    • MOLLS says:

      So if someone tricked you into having sex with them by pretending to be your wife/husband that wouldn’t be rape?
      I suppose if someone is so drunk they cant even walk it makes them fair game to?
      Are they asking for it?

  8. laurelnev says:

    Oh how I wish we could go back to that magic that was the 1st couple of seasons!

    We know Zelena’s pregnancy either will turn out to be fake or that will not come to full term. How come I fear Emma may be the cause of the latter, should that occur.

    I’m not sure I like where this season is going, as I’ve said before. However, if they would only unite the yin-yang that they want us to believe Emma and Lily are, rather than pit them against each other, they can still pull this season out of the dumps. I fear we may need to wait until Fall for that, and I do hope viewers come back to see it.

    Just glad Emma stole that SS instead of a prius or so,ething. And what was Lily thinking that she could outrun anyone in an old VW Bug!

  9. Heather says:

    Zelena’s pregnancy is utterly ridiculous and Robin’s reaction was awful. What were the writer’s thinking?!? Otherwise, the episode was pretty good, but I can’t get over those last few minutes. Ridiculous!

    • BrittBrat says:

      Agreed! I hope this whole pregnancy is fake and just a way to get back at Regina. If the pregnancy is real I have no idea where they are going with this story.

    • Jonah Scher says:

      Two people are living together for months. One loves the other, and the other wants to steal her sister’s happiness. Yep, totally ridiculous.

  10. Jennifer says:

    That episode was a thrill ride from start to finish. I loved the car chase scene and the whole scene with Emma holding Lily at gunpoint and Regina talking her down was so well played by all three actresses.

  11. L.M. says:

    The writers really didn’t think this Zelena/Marian story through. I was hoping they’d say Robin and Zelena didn’t have sex because Robin wanted to take things slow since they’d only just been reunited but now…not only did Zelena rape Robin, but Robin is going to be protecting his rapist because she’s pregnant with his kid. Who would come up with something like that?! Even if it turns out Zelena is lying about the pregnancy, this is still such a gross storyline. And you know they’re never going to address it as rape on-screen.

    • Mer says:

      Outlaw Queen could have been a beautiful story and unique in OUAT where you have a male hero / female villain together. Everything became grotesque when Marian was introduced because how they written things out. Poor Roland.

  12. carrionne says:

    It’s not Young Miss Swan who was latina, it’s Young Lilith Page

    • B says:

      The recapper knows that. They were saying that Emma didn’t change race like Lily, who nonetheless doesn’t recognize her at first.

    • the girl says:

      Lily is Maleficient’s daughter and Mal is not Latina. I’m not sure why people are so confused about the idea that a young Latina might be hired to play white. As has been pointed out, Lana Parilla is playing a white character, or at least there has never been any indication that Regina is Latina even though her portrayer is.

      • Z25 says:

        Regina’s ethnic heritage hasn’t been addressed in dialogue, but the younger and older version of her father and her grandfather have all been played by Latin actors. I doubt that was coincidental casting.

        • Isobel says:

          Agree and the girl Lily pretended to be her daughter was Hispanic. Why they didn’t cast an actress that looked more like the actress who plays Jess in secrets and lies I don’t know, not that I dislike the actress who plays adult Lily, but she doesn’t believably look like the adult version of young Lily

      • Laziel says:

        Actually, the writers and Lana has stated several times that Regina is the EF version of a woman of Latin decent. They’ve just never done anything with it except one or two throwaway lines in the beginning. Basically, they’ve done here as they do with most things on this show, they tell instead of show. Which is the worst kind of storytelling there is.

        • Jonah Scher says:

          They should “show” that she’s Latina? What, she comes from whatever story “Puss in Boots” was set in? I think it should be a non-issue. The more people of color we have who are just playing roles, and not defined by their race, the better.

          • Laziel says:

            As it happens, I quite agree with you there. Race should be a non-issue when it comes to characters. But that will only happen when we’re all equal and sadly, we’re not all equal. Let’s take a look at an example. Once Upon a Time. The law of averages tells us that in an equal society, the cast should be, at the very least, 50% white, 50% colored. (Not really since I’m lumping everything into white and non white when the reality is much more complex, but go with this simplification.) Talent blooms everywhere, so that shouldn’t be so hard.

            There are nine main cast members in OUaT. Can you tell me me how many of those aren’t white? One. Lana Parrilla.
            There have been a total of 14 main cast members in OUaT. Can you tell me how many of those weren’t white? One. Lana Parrilla.
            “But there have been people of color on the show! Many!” you say. Fine, let’s go there. Yes, there have been more. Do you know how many people how color there has been on the show on the whole? I count 11. But hey, let’s bump that up to 15 in case I missed some. Know how many people have been on the show and playing a character period? 115 people. So for every 15 PoC, we get 100 white people. Yep. Sounds like an even distribution to me. And out of those 15? Maaaaybe five have a story that ends happily. The rest? Dead or have not been show since they had their hearts broken in some way.

            But as it happens, you missed my main point. Let’s break what I said down:

            1: Lana Parrilla is of Latin decent.
            2: The writers and Lana has explicitly told the viewing public that the character Lana plays, Regina, is of Latin decent. Heck, maybe it -is- a character from ‘Puss in boots’ that made it into her family tree somewhere.
            3: In the post I replied to, the person thought that Regina was white.

            This means that this person, and others, have failed to realized that Regina is of Latin decent. As such, the writers have failed to show us this thing they told us. Go into any Writing 101 class anywhere and they’ll tell you that this is BAD!

            I’ll give you an example. An extreme one mind you. Let’s say the writers tells us that they’re introducing a character named Robin Hood for the first time, and they tell us he’s from the Robin Hood story. But he doesn’t use a bow. He doesn’t wear green. He doesn’t like the forest. In fact, he loathes it and just sits at home reading a book. That’s all he does. He doesn’t steal, he doesn’t break laws, he doesn’t fight with a sword from time to time. He just goes to work and then back home to read.

            That character up there? It’s not Robin Hood. They might share the same name, but the characters aren’t even connected. It doesn’t matter how much the writers tell us it’s him. If they can’t show it there is no point. They’ve failed.

            Hell, it’s like they’ve told us that Mr. Spock is Vulcan, but he’s not calm, he’s not logical. He act’s just like a human would in any situation.

            If they hadn’t -said- that Regina’s of latin decent you’re right, Lana’s decent doesn’t matter.

          • Jonah Scher says:

            I have to replay to my own comment, Laziel, but I am replying to yours. Now, I think I see what you are saying. By bringing up the plot point, they made it relevant, and then did not do anything with it. Fair point, I’ll admit. I don’t really care though, since writers are always throwing out character tidbits that never make it on to the show. I don’t think this is as glaring as Robin Hood, because there is no “stereotypical” fantasy Latin mold to which we should expect Regina to conform. I’d be surprised and a bit disappointed if she did, honestly. But I like your post. ;) Just one point though. Casting would not be 50/50 in a fair society, according to the law of averages. The percentage would depend on the society. Currently, our society is about 70% white. So the law of averages tells us that we would have 30% people of color on a “fair” show. Fair casting in South Africa, otoh, would mean 90% POC or so. Of course, we should NOT expect every show to be fair. For example, Sleepy Hollow focuses on two families (Crane and Mills), one of which has mostly black members. So this has a racial imbalance of black main characters in one direction (30% black, by my reckoning). The Tudors, on the other hand, has a racial imbalance in the other direction: mostly white, for the purpose of historical accuracy.

  13. Kelly says:

    So Kitsis/Horowitz learned nothing from the Graham controversy in season 1 and men getting raped by women with magic is now a recurring theme. Wow.
    Belle having her heart taken was made a non-con situation too.
    I might be ready to drop OUAT for good. There are unpopular decision and there is unwillingness to learn from their own mistakes.

  14. Ducky says:

    “My whole life is darkness, when you’re around things are brighter” this episode was so gay, I totally ship Emma with Lily and their forever entwined lives. Bye Hook, it’s been fun.

  15. Boiler says:

    TVLine either this article needs to go or the comments on it do. Obviously in REAL life pregnancies started from rape is a real concern. HOWEVER this is fantasy and I don’t recall Zelena or Marion forcing themselves on Robin. And in real life Zelena isn’t going to snap her fingers and become Marion. In the context of this show those of you complaining about rape are taking it way too seriously as the circumstances here cannot be duplicated in real life. C’mon people

    • Boiler says:

      Also I would bet the actors would be stunned if or when they read these. I doubt it ever crossed their minds

    • Rigerty says:

      Censorship? Really?

    • Me says:

      Thank you!! Exactly. The people taking this too far need to take a breath and calm down.

    • Wishbone says:

      I’m shocked to read this. Shocked and saddened.

    • Leeeeeeeee says:

      EXACTLY!!! These comments about the upset about a “fantasy rape” are ridculous, nobody including the writers im sure are trying to be pro-rape,,, it is a storyline on a fantasy tv show, that to my knowledge(unless the wicked witch or glamouring powers exist in the real world) would never happen. These type of storylines have happened in the past in MANY fantasy tv shows before(buffy,Charmed etc)and not recieved this kinda of backlash. If you dont like the storyline and the fact that zelena TRICKED not forced Robin hood into having sex with her upsets you that much perhaps just dont watch the show. Crazy thing shows like svu which deals with things like rape and worst and is based way closer to real life….ppl dont complain about that. Its just a tv show guys the wicked witch did not rape the evil queens boo robin hood… mostly because none of them are real, no need to be all crazy pants about a fantasy tv show

  16. Amber says:

    OHHHHH NOOOO! Literally screamed when I read about Zelena’s pregnancy. Gross. So, ugh. I can’t believe the show went there. So done.

  17. Luli says:

    I loved the whole Emma/Lily scenes, and Regina/Emma/Lily. I hope we get to see more of them, even though according to next week’s promo Lily is still on her revenge path. I like their friendship, lets keep it through season 5.

  18. UT53 says:

    Gross. However, Once Upon a Time went there before and didn’t learn. I’m more ashamed to see fans defending the writers.

  19. Lex says:

    LOVED this episode! It was intense. Lana, Jen and Agnes were INCREDIBLE. Even though it feels very soapy, I enjoyed it. I kinda saw the twist coming but I thought the delivery was outstanding. Have a good night, Matt!

  20. Hodan says:

    The episode was going overboard with the whole Lily sympathy. The girl had a hard life for sure but Emma’s childhood was just as messed up too. It is not like Emma was living the life while Lily suffered.

    It is like the writers didn’t think through this whole storyline!

  21. Wishbone says:

    I’m disappointed. I always defended the writers of OUaT, but not any more. OUaT irrevocably lost some of it’s magic for me. The final 5 minutes were shameful.

  22. Shiela says:

    Just when you believe they couldn’t make OQ more disgusting, they introduce a rape baby. They probably don’t even know that’s rape.

    • Mer says:

      I really don’t think the writers consider it as rape when they wrote it off. I know some people always say, “rape is in shows all the time.” I get that, I really do. No one is saying that we don’t want moral complications on the show.

      The problem that OUAT has is how they frame things. Like adultery happens all the time. I get that. But OUAT will frame it as romantic when other shows, even on the shame network, make it seems wrong. And in Robin sexing Zelena, it just seems the show is not going to frame it as very wrong and as rape. Hopefully that will change.

  23. Katie says:

    What a great episode! I thought Lily and Emma’s dynamic was so interesting, and I can’t wait to see where things go from here. Also, I was really glad to see Rumple do some good for a change. Confessing his fears to Belle, and returning her heart to her, is definitely a step in the right direction. I love it when his character gets some growth.

  24. Wilson says:

    I love me some Bex Mader and it’s not her fault obvs, but man after eps 417 and 419 I have to say the Wicked Witch should’ve stayed dead. Her obsession with Rumplestiltskin was creepy and uncomfortable, but now she’s a rapist too what overkill.

  25. Starbuck22 says:

    Should be interesting to read what producers and writers have to say about backlash. It’s all over Twitter too. Curious that showrunners who to this day have to answer uncomfortable (for them!) question about the Huntsman thought of this as a good move. All for shock value maybe? Hope TVLine or other tv media put them on the spot.

  26. Z25 says:

    What is left to say that hasn’t been said. Adam and Eddy and their staff writers overshot the mark by miles at the end, which ruined an otherwise decent episode. And I’m not a fan of the whitewashing of Lily too. If they think I’m ever going to root for Rumple and Belle to get back together again… yeah that’s not gonna happen.

  27. Matthew B Lawler says:

    So now we know for certain that last week belle did not consent to Regina taking her heart and Robin Hood truly is a world class idiot who was completely fooled by zelena and even when faced with the truth won’t leave because she is pregnant
    So much for malnificent being a threat first last week she allows cruella to get the best of her and this week she allows will Scarlett to steal belles heart and does nothing

  28. this episode was DISGUSTING. Rape is not something to make fun of or to take lightly! the fact that the writers did shows they have ZERO respect for rape victims.


    • Mandy says:

      I agree that it poor writing but they do not endorse rape. I don’t think anyone who watch this episode was rooting for Zelena or thinking she was a good guy. She is a villain. A nasty villain. People here seemed to forget that during her whole storyline last season she control Gold against his will and made him do thing against his will. This wasn’t just trick him, it was literally taking away his will and forcing him to do thing that he didn’t want to do and getting pleasure from making him do it. I don’t remember as much outrage then. Just because she didn’t force him to have sex doesn’t make any better or worse then what she did now. She is evil and what she does is evil. Almost everyone who watch the episode though what she was doing was evil. The message it was sending is people who rape other people are evil.

      And as for the baby issue, Robin is not staying for Zelena, he is staying around because there is an innocent life who did do anything wrong involves. We just saw with the Charmings that assuming a baby is evil because of the mother is bad is wrong and can cause trouble. Robin doesn’t care about the mother he cares about the baby who is his. Regina will also have to realize that this baby is her niece or nephew. Will she discard her family because she hates her sister or will she protect the child. There are rape victims who keep the babies because it is their child regardless of the scum that fathered it. Robin can love the child and hate the mother.

    • murley says:

      While I agree completely that rape should never be made fun of or taken lightly I don’t think that is happening. It certainly isn’t being made fun of and whether or not it is being taken lightly remains to be seen. I one hundred percent think that the sexual assault aspect of this story should be directly addressed in the narrative and I am going to wait and see if it is. From a storytelling standpoint they ended on a impactful reveal and then the conflict around it. I get that. So next week is when they should, if they are responsible storytellers and respectful of the serious topic at hand, talk about it and address the things being discussed here. Yes they failed to do that before but I am not convinced yet that they haven’t learned their lesson from that and will actually address it this time. The next episode will determine how mad I am at what they are doing!

  29. ninergrl6 says:

    Saw the Zelena pregnancy “twist” coming weeks ago. The “hero gets villain pregnant while she’s impersonating his wife/gf” storyline is bad enough on Grimm. I don’t need it on this show too. So cliché. (I can’t believe I just referred to that as a cliché, but if you watch enough fantasy shows & soap operas, you’ve seen it all before.)

    I 100% thought Belle knew & had given consent for Regina to use her heart against Rumple. Guess not! I really wish Will had been the one to put Belle’s heart back because I have no sympathy for Rumple, but I’m sure the Rumbelle fans love the way that scene turned out.

    Really enjoyed Regina/Emma teaming up and the Emma/Lily plot both past & present. Much more compelling than having more EF flashbacks. I like that their lives have been so intertwined without them (or Emma at least) even realizing it. However, I don’t like where they’re taking the fate vs. free will storyline. First the author is the scapegoat for the villains’ problems, and now thanks to the author’s manipulation of Snow & Charming, it’s “fate” for Lily to be bad & Emma to be good. If they were destined for bad/good behavior, then how do you explain Emma becoming a thief & ending up in jail? She was no saint (or Savior) before coming to Storybrooke. If anything, it was her love for Henry at the end of season 1 that truly made her the Savior. Yet another incongruous retcon for 4B.

    Even though it was brief, I LOVED the Captain Swan exchange before she left town. He still makes her smile & gets through to her even if she’s pushing other people away. I also love that he refered to himself as someone who started good, turned bad because of his thirst for revenge, but now has come full circle thanks to her. Something happy in an otherwise heavy episode.

  30. Jonah says:

    So many people in the comments don’t seem to understand what the term ‘rape’ means. It’s not just forced intercourse. If your definition is that it’s by force or an unwillingness then anyone who was drugged and “not-raped” are consensual by that logic, because they weren’t “aware” that it was happening. This is no different. There’s no “gray” area here. Just because it’s supposed to be a family show doesn’t mean you can just stick your head in the sand and pretend that it’s not what it is.

    That being said, I still enjoy this series and it will be interesting to see where it goes, but I just hate reading so many logical fallacies. Just accept it and move on already.

    • Jonah Scher says:

      This is not a logical fallacy! This is a definitional misunderstanding. You are correct that it qualifies as rape, of course, but you mistakenly refer to it as a “logical fallacy.” Furthermore, rejecting it as rape does NOT mean that it must be view as consensual; after all, someone who rejects it as rape is already using a different definition. When you have an argument that good, there’s no need to bog it down in mistakes.

  31. Heather says:

    Emma’s “super powers” seem to come and go. Example 316, one week she can’t tell that Cruella is lying, but the next she can tell Lily is. Ok

  32. Jess says:

    So if an adult had sex with a minor, but the minor was pretending to be an adult, who raped whom? Did the minor rape the adult because s/he was being fraudulent, or did the adult rape the minor because s/he didn’t get legitimate proof of what age the minor was? I think we should use another word for these situations beside rape. Because consensual sex is not rape whether a person is being fraudulent or not.

  33. scotlore says:

    Couple of questions. Who sent the wolf? Who was the wolf, really?
    Who was impersonating the Apprentice on the bus talking to Lily? Because I can’t think why he would intercede, but I can think of why Gold or Selena would. It would mean playing with time but I wouldn’t put it past them to do so.

    • ninergrl6 says:

      When I first saw the wolf, I shouted, “Red!” I can’t remember what she looks like in wolf form, so I don’t even know if there’s actually a resemblance, nor do I know why she’d be interceding in that moment. Knowing the writers, it’s probably just a random wolf that’ll never be explained.

  34. Pat says:

    What I am most upset about, is Robin’s non reaction, upon hearing the news that Zelena is Marian and also she went back and killed the real Marian. Robins reaction was as cold as a fish. I am realizing that Regina needs to find another man, because this one is acting like a wimp. Next week looks intense because Mary Margaret gets hurt. I am not sure how Emma is going to handle this but once again no matter what she does it will be referred to as her dark side coming out and that phrase is starting to drive me nuts!

    • MM says:

      Cold? Robin was in complete shock. Which is a pretty natural reaction after everything they’ve thrown at him on OUAT within a short amount of time. I’m not sure what you expected him to do within seconds of finding out Marian is dead, Zelena killed her in the FTL past, then came back to the present thanks to Emma, Hook and time travel and has been posing as Marian and living with him as Marian ever since all out of her insane obsession with Regina and hurting her. But the idea that Regina “needs to find another man” is also pretty nonsensical unless you’re biased to begin with, sorry.

      • Sylvia says:

        I have to agree with Pat on this one. Maybe Robin was in shock but they live in a world of magic and flying monkeys, so I don’t really buy the shock value. For this to have happened is an everyday occurrence in the EF or SB. I was blown away by the lack of emotion when Regina told Robin. Not to mention it came from Regina who Robin is suppose to be madly in love with. And even though he may have been not sure about it, Zelena showed him who she was and then said she was pregnant, and he said he couldn’t leave her. The bottom line is they dropped the ball with the Robin/Regina/Marion story and have made a mess of it, at this point it is just irreparable. The sad thing is it could have been a good story had they told it in the same slow burn way they have told other true love relationships. It may be extremely frustrating the slow burn way they are telling TL relationships but at least it gives them an opportunity to do it right and think things through- clearly NOT what is happening here.

        • CbinJ says:

          Robin’s reaction is confusing upon first watch, but when you rewatch after you know the twist I think you can see that Robin’s reaction is not even really shock, but denial because he already knows the implications if what Regina is saying about Marion is true.

          I completely agree with the rest of what you said. I have been saying since pretty much when they introduced Robin that he is a victim of bad plots and writing. It’s like the writers hate Robin Hood…or they really do not do male characters very well. Since the beginning, I have been disappointed with the way a lot of the guys have been written with the exception of Charming/ David Nolan (because that actually worked within the narrative and I’m convinced it was also an allegory). It’s gotten even worse this season where Rumple has been destroyed, Hook (still my favorite) follows Emma around like a lost puppy (who doesn’t like puppies though?), and Robin fell through a portal to the Soap Opera Realm. Didn’t know there was one of those, did you? I wonder if we can find the door to it in Jefferson’s Hat ;)

          On a more serious note, just because you have strong women doesn’t mean you can’t write some consistently strong men. True equality doesn’t merely switch the gender roles, but gives you a little bit of variety: male and female villains and more modernized balanced romances ( i.e. Snow and Charming, Hook and Emma) and also traditional damsel in distress and heroic prince. And I know some people don’t like the romance stuff, but really–it’s a show about fairy tales made by the Disney conglomerate no less.

          • Sylvia says:

            I totally agree about the male thing.. I feel like the men or some of them were strong at one time, like Hook I season 3 but then it’s like they slowly destroy that strength. I really enjoyed who Rumple was before this season. Even Will they brought on and then totally destroyed his character by making him Belles new partner. And that is what they did to Robin- I liked him at the end of season 3 and looked forward to OQ but then in season 4 they made him weak and dishonourable and then tried to fix it by suddenly making him honorable again? I say again in the thirst to capatalize on the Disney characters, like frozen they dropped the ball on the main characters. Even Jared is another male they have missed the boat on. The few times we see him and he says something he doesn’t even sound the truest believer anymore. He should be growing and becoming more mature but sometimes when he talks it’s like he is the little kid that knockd on Emma’s door in season 1. I thought we were going to have a good story on him working in Golds shop but all he did was sweep the floor. I don’t want puppy dog Hook or baby Henry or smarmy Robin. I want the strong male characters we were introduced to! They need their own stories outside their relationships – we were told that would happen but it hasn’t- it’s like one of those matriarchal systems where the men exist solely to service the women-that is not who these men are!

    • Gail says:

      To be honest, Robin hasn’t been written as caring about much other than having someone to have sex with, and the actor who plays him is pretty bad, making bad writing even worse.

      • Mer says:

        Absolutely agree. I don’t see why Robin will choose Regina over Zelena when, typically, he has been with Greenie longer than Queenie.

  35. MM says:

    This is the second time in three weeks OUAT wrote itself into the corner in the last minutes of the episode only for drama. One of my main issues with OUAT was always that the writers don’t have a real reliable sense of what is ‘good’ drama that helps the characters and plot to develop and gain depth and what’s too much and has no effects on anything other than shock the viewers and damage the show. I dont see any narrative value in Zelena’s return other than that it’s blow for blow for viewers and the Regina and Robin characters who have enough on their plates as it is and the writers doing their annual “will Regina go back evil” story that’s gotten old like two season ago. I’m not disappointed in any of the characters, but I’m saddened these writers can’t do better.

    • Mer says:

      I agree. But it is not surprising that the show relies on plot driven stories than character ones. There was an interview where A&E mention tha they didn’t find deep conversations all exciting. So with attitudes like that, that is why we always have the next villain up, big twists, and very cheap drama. It is like, they hate season 1 even though that was the best season in the series. I think it is apparent that they exceeding their own expectations in getting a season 2 and now a season 5.

    • CbinJ says:

      Keeping in mind that I found the retcon to bring Zelena back ridiculous, I actually felt they had written themselves out of the corner with “Heart of Gold”. I had hope; I saw the potential for some compelling drama with regards to all kinds of things far beyond the relationship between Robin and Regina. But the soapy twist, though amusing to me because I find over-the-top drama and jumping the shark and show cancelations hilarious (I don’t get too attached to TV in that way even when I like the show), is problematic on so many levels for the theme and plots that are beyond the character relationships.

      I mean, if the whole thing is a lie, it was pointless. If Regina rewrites the book…I can’t even begin to try to speculate because I cannot possibly see how the writers dig themselves out of this hole in a way that does not create a completely new moral dilemma. Maybe I’ll give the writers some credit in that they showed what pure evil and an impossible situation looks like–both of which exist in the real world.

  36. Mer says:

    In light of this episode and episodes past, I fail to see how Outlaw Queen is an epic romance. This is the fourth time that Robin has chosen another woman over Regina. And Zelena may be lying about the pregnancy, but I think it is evident that he had sex with her.

    Robin is wishy-washy and is an “out of sight, out of mind” type of man. So when Marian came back in 4a, he dumped Regina like a bad habit. But once she turned popiscle, he banged Regina in the vault. When Marian got her heart back, he wanted to stay with Regina, but he pushed him over the line to be with his wife and son. Like a week later, he is banging his Marian. And when Regina rode hours and frantically tried to convince him that Zelena was Marian, he brushed her off so quickly. There was a lack of trust there.

    He obviously wasn’t crying over Regina but Regina still held on pathetically on page 23 over a 1 week relationship. I don’t see how they are compatiable and what exactly qualifies them as soulmates other than pixie dust. I don’t see Regina gaining much from a spineless man who brings more drama than he is worth. If Outlaw Queen is suppose to be endgame, they are not doing a great job of it.

    • Gail says:

      At our house everyone 100% believes they hate Outlaw Queen and are trying to make it so gross, so awful, such misery, they have to kill it to save the show.

      • Mer says:

        I just don’t see why they are pushing Outlaw Queen so much. Sean Maguire is that much of a fan favorite in comparison to Lana, JMO, and Robert. He is not as strong as an actor as those 3. Outlaw Queen as a ship is not as big as Captain Swan, Rumbelle, nor even Swan Queen and it is the newest of the bunch, it is not like the show will collapse if they are no longer an item becuase it won’t mess with the core of the show.

        His centric-episode was like the series or season lowest. They are making a mess of canon to include him in the overall storyline. I just don’t see the appeal of keeping his character on the show other than cheap soapy drama that nobody wants. I just don’t understand.

    • ninergrl6 says:

      Maybe it’ll turn into a “be careful what you wish for” scenario. All season Regina has been so desperate to get her happy ending with Robin. What if, when she fiinally gets him conflict-free, she realizes he’s not all that? (Like Cinderella in Into the Woods) In a way it’d be poetic justice for her obsession with finding the author.

      • Karen says:

        Regina and Robin were together conflict-free in season 3 until the finale and they were perfectly happy with one another. And no offense, but I think some of the more recent comments here are are slowly bordering on victim shaming. Robin Hood was tricked and raped by a woman who magicked herself into his lost wife, a woman he loved and mourned for years. Zelena preying on his feelings of grief and guilt to manipulate him and use him to hurt her sister makes him a victim in this situation. My respect for opinions that try to make him into the bad guy here is very limited to be honest.

        • Mer says:

          Robin was unfortunately tricked by Zelena and it is very gross. But people still hold him accountable for his own actions. When Regina approached him, he just dismissed her claims as a jealous ex. For a supposed true love couple, you’ll think that he will have more trust in her.

          And even if it is Zelena or really Marian, at the end of the day, Regina is always a second choice for him and I don’t see how Regina benefits to be in a relationship with a wishy-washy man.

          • Karen says:

            That’s not what happened. Regina flipped out (understandably), started screaming at Marilena and threatened to kill her. Only then did Robin lose his cool and told her to back off too. To protect the woman he looked at his pregnant wife. I would have loved to see how some who are now very quick to jump at him would have wanted to crucify him just as much if he’d just let an enraged Regina run lose at who he presumed was a pregnant Maid Marian.
            We can debate his choice of words, but for the love of all things holy take the situation into account. Consider for a second that the show is dropping one bomb after another on him and he literally had two seconds to digest to everything before Regina was ready to rip Marilena’s heart out in front of him. Give the man a break. Allow him to be a human being, not some sort of idealized super-guy that never makes any mistake and serves as a pretty and perfect Ken doll love interest next to a woman who is probably the most flawed, most complex (and most interesting) character on the whole show.
            I also couldn’t disagree more with your last paragraph, but I don’t think this is going to lead anywhere and I admittedly lose interest in even wanting to debate with you if you look at a man who has been through what Robin has went through since 3.22 within just a few weeks and call him “wishy-washy”. That’s just not objective.

          • Robert says:

            OQ shippers have been in denial about OQ since it was introduced. They got along in S3? You mean, Wicked for about 5 days in which they spent maybe 30 minutes with each other? That sort of thing.

          • Mer says:


            You are the one ignoring facts. I am objectively showing examples of what’s on screen. And once happens on screen is Robin bouncing back and forth between ZeleMarian. As soon as Marian reappear, he dumped Regina and went to his wife (understandable). As soon as she became popsicle, he did not try to find a cure for his wife, but day drink, neglect his son, and slept with Regina when she was pushing him to stay away from her.

            Now Marian is back and she got a frozen heart, Regina pushed him to be with Marian and he crossed the line. He got over Regina quickly since he immeditely slept with Marian, and we saw him delete Regina’s contact from his phone.

            I jsut don’tsee Robin as some man so in love with Regina, but a man willing to sleep with whatever woman that is in his vicinity. He encompasses a “out of sight, out of mind” as of 4A. That is why he is wishy-washy. Why would Regina be with a man like that and be distraught over a 1 week relationship, pixie dust said so, that’s why. I’m just not impressed with the writing of these two as a couple. Hell, I wouldn’t be shock for Robin to somehow fall in love with Zelena since he dated her longer than he has with Regina.

          • Maro says:

            Nothing like a random, generalizing slam directed at an entire group of people based on nothing than your personal dislike to make up for not having any arguments, Robert. Stay classy.

  37. Jaded_gal says:

    This seems like a good article, but the title? Not so good.

    Obviously, many shows kicked off new seasons recently, Once upon a Time AND Orphan Black. Which makes me wonder why you called the article, Once upon a Time: Orphan Black. Of course it only takes a quick look at the photo accompanying the article to know its about Once upon a Time & NOT Orphan Black…but still, that’s not exactly the smartest choice for a title, considering that Orphan Blacks season just started & is on episode 2 of its season.

  38. Kayla says:

    The thing is, had he known that was Zelena he would have never consented to having sex with her. I’m honestly confused as to why he’s staying with her, and not leaving with Regina. This woman killed his wife, posed as her, and is now carrying his child, yet he chooses her over the woman he truly loves? There has to be more to this, Zelena has to have him under some sort of a spell. I understand that is his child and all, but again, after all Zelena’s done, how could he love someone like that? Besides that, Zelena obviously despises her sister, getting herself pregnant to the mans he loves wouldn’t be enough. Come on people, this is Robin Hood we’re talking about. Yes he’s changed, but has he changed so much he is forcing himself to be with this wicked woman who’s carrying his child? He has be controlled with something else. Personally, if I were him, I’d go with Regina, because I believe he truly loves her, and while Zelena is carrying his child, how do we know she’s not faking it? I’d probably be shocked if I found out my pregnant wife was actually the love of my life’s crazy sister.

    • Frank says:

      This guy has never been Robin Hood. He pressured a woman he had dated a few days who originally murdered his wife into committing adultery with him while said wife was dying in a coma.

      I’ve never really understood where people get the idea he’s an honorable man or even a marginally good one. It’s certainly not from the canon narrative.

      • Mer says:

        I’m still trying to figure it out Frank. And has you laid out clearly, how can that type of couple qualify by the show’s standards as true love?

      • Kayla says:

        I think you read that wrong. If he’s that type of person then why is he staying with Zelena? Because she’s pregnant and it’s the honorable thing to do? I doubt that. Like you said, if he truly is like that then why is he chosing Zelena. Especially when he knows it is her and she’s pregnant?

  39. Buttercup says:

    Yes, Zelena raped Robin. What did everyone expect? She’s an evil villain. They lie, steal, cheat, kill, and sometimes even rape. The sad thing is that Robin has to be involved in her life until the baby is born to protect his child. I’m interested to see how Robin handles this. He has certainly been violated in the worst possible way. Kudos to him for having the strength of character to think of the innocent child first.

    I did not think this was one of OUAT’s best episodes. I am annoyed by the implication that Lily lacked free will or that her choices were not her own. I do not want the characters’ moral agency taken from them. Why care about them if they have no free will and are just pawns in someone else’s game? And why does Emma keep getting blamed for Lily’s sad life? She had nothing to do with it. That’s on Snow & Charming (and the Author and the Apprentice).

    Hook and Emma were adorable as usual. Their romance continues to be the only light spot in a show that is getting increasingly dark. He actually got her to smile there for a second, which is something she hasn’t done in several episodes. Also, I was touched by Rumple telling Belle that Will is going to be the one to protect her heart now (although any sympathy I have for Rumple is limited giving his continuing plan to turn Emma dark). I am starting to think that Rumple may actually die before this season is over, although I’m sure we’ll continue to see him in flashbacks. I saw his discussion with Belle as him giving her his blessing to move on after he’s gone.

    • CbinJ says:

      We’re completely on the same page with this episode, except I did think it was one of the best episodes of this half if not the season–it’d definitely crack the top ten. Emma flashback episodes are always some of my favorites, though.

      Regarding Lily’s lack of free will, that’s going to annoy me more than I thought if it’s true. I’m fine with a free will verses predestination debate, but I hope they add some more layers to it. I still empathized with young Emma over Lily and I was quietly cheering when she told Lily that maybe she just should make better life choices.

      I really hope Hook gets more screen time in these next three episodes. Since ” Heart of Gold”, I have actually warmed up to Rumple even as he continues to mess with Emma (who is among my favorite characters). I was surprised he sort of gave Will his blessing to be with Belle. My only complaint with regards to all that is Will and Belle continue to be two of the most underdeveloped characters with terribly underdeveloped plots and terribly underdeveloped and underwhelming relationships. I think Granny and Leroy are more developed than Belle (as compared to their supposed roles). I can’t imagine what people think of Will if they haven’t seen Wonderland–some random guy that pops up every now and again in random places?

      • twin63 says:

        I think the reduced Hook storyline is the best idea they’ve had for him since season 2. I don’t say this because I’m a hater or anything. I just don’t think the character as they have written him season 3 works well with more screentime. He’s better as a more supporting type of character to the ‘real’ leads with the big problems and drama that drives the story like Snow and Charming and Emma on one hand with Maleficent and Lily, Regina on the other with the sick-crazy Zelena story, and then Rumple with his black heart and the author story. These four carry the plot, but they also need characters to support them.

        • CbinJ says:

          You definitely support your argument for less Hook. I just can help wishing for my favorite character to get more screen time. :)

  40. Pasdevos Affaires says:

    This show is so rotten I get tired of following it, hoping that it will get soon. The fandom deserve intelligent stories! A&K don’t try to make good anymore! Lucky for us, we’ll have X-files back and Heroes revived to forget the huge fiasco OUAT has turned to be!

  41. rachelle says:

    Wow. I thought tonight’s episode was one of the best of the season, but then I come on here and everyone’s bashing it. To each his/her own, I guess. This episode was great and unpredictable to me, so I enjoyed it a lot.

    • rachelle says:

      Also, I forgot to add, the actress who plays teen Lily. Is. Phenomenal. She seriously took my breath away tonight. I loved her acting so much that I wish she’d somehow age super fast so they could use her for older Lily, too. She was so great at portraying Lily’s emotions/struggles. I really felt for her and (stupidly?) did not want teen Emma to leave her.

  42. kirads09 says:

    Has there been a similar “rape baby” backlash re Adalind on Grimm – got preggers whilst in the form of Juliette who slept with Nick? She basically did the same Z just did. Keep in mind this is fictional TV characters on shows involving witches and magic spells. I am not sure it is as clear cut “rape” situation as if involving real mortal humans. I am trying to be sensitive, but not sure all the “outrage” is justified in this case.

    • B says:

      I haven’t kept track of Grimm fandom as much, but I know people have talked about it. I know these are TV shows, but media don’t exist in a vacuum, they reflect the conscious and unconscious attitudes of our culture, things that people accept without being aware of them and don’t want to be made aware of, so it’s good to comment on these things.

  43. Love the recap title Orphan Black because that is all I could think of looking at young Lily this episode. I also thought of the magic in the old Excalibur movie and how King Arthur was conceived – with magic. And now Zelena is carrying Robin Hood’s baby and he is too honorable a man to leave. Really Robin? A woman tricks you into a pregnancy and you decide to stay with her? My only quibble is that OUAT is not officially turned into a real soap opera with this pregnancy plot. The last episodes of this season better turn things around because this just sucks.

  44. Elizabeth says:

    I am not sure if this has been mentioned but I think this is pretty typical of how our media handles women raping men. Downton Abbey had the maid giving Tom a lot of alcohol and than sleeping with him. But if the same was done by a man to a woman, it would certainly be called rape. Currently I believe that our society and media focus on a rape culture as defined by what happens to women but they don’t always take into consideration when men are raped by women.

  45. Lisa says:

    Please get rid of Zelena once and for all please. Never liked her or that storyline.

  46. Leeeeeeeee says:

    rape??? Its a show about real life fairy tale characters… I dont believe “the courts” would find a way to punish a witch… unless they move from storybrook to salem ;-) . Its just a fantasy show stop being extra about it guys.smh

  47. Robert says:

    Misognysts in sci-fi fantasy have been using it being fantasy BS to excuse gross irresponsibility as storytellers, particularly regarding rape, for decades. You would never know the entire genre was invented by a woman.

    This story became disgusting the moment Hood didn’t care who murdered his wife. He’s the absolute worst Hood ever, and Zelena raping him doesn’t change that his fidelity is dictated by which sexually available woman is closer to him. Marion actually being Zelena just makes a terrible romance nauseating and offensive.

    • Mer says:

      Robin Hood is one of the OUAT characters they introduced that does not feel like Robin Hood in folk lore at all. They know they haven’t written Hood well since he was introduced with a new actor and that is why in their centric, they had to repeatedly put “honor” and “code” in the dialogue since he never really shown it in the debacle of the Frozen arc.

      Thank you Robert so much to pointing out how it seems that Robin easily goes from one woman to the next when he is not with them. That doesn’t scream soul mate status of relationship. OUAT has done a disservice to proclaim Regina and Robin as soul mates with no foundation as too how two completely different people are compatiable. I don’t like Captain Swan but at least they are trying to build it to something. They really jump the shark with pixie dust.

  48. When I saw the wolf i thought it was Graham xDD Anyone else?

  49. Pasdevos Affaires says:

    I have this beef againts the writters!
    Snow White and cutie Charming use Mal’s Infant daughter to cast away any Dark potential in Emma abd concentrate it in lilith. OK, story goes that they were successful. Ashamed after realizing the extent of what was achieved, but mission accomplished. Emma has no more darkness in.
    Now tell me how come it is so easy for her to be swayed towards Darkness now!
    Just a ridiculous, not thought over empty storyline.
    OUAT has been Lost-ified!|

  50. It's Delovely says:

    “Outlaw Queen” could have been an interesting story/relationship. Instead of focusing on the conflict inherent in their relationship (Regina was the one who killed Marian in the original timeline), though, it’s been all about gimmicky twists and retcons. This latest development with Zelena could have been a way to explore Regina’s actions towards Graham, but it’s clear that the writers aren’t fully aware of the disturbing implications of either the Regina/Graham or Robin/Zelena relationships. I honestly don’t see how they’re going to write their way out of this one.

    The “B” plot involving Rumple and Belle’s heart was my favorite part of the episode. I liked how Rumple teamed up with Will and outwitted Maleficent to get Belle’s heart back. Rumple’s speech to Belle was honest and heartfelt, as he accepted full responsibility for his actions (no blaming an Author, others, etc.). Nice work from Emilie De Ravin playing the noticeable change that came over Belle when her heart was returned to her. Carlyle and De Ravin have have such chemistry as Rumple/Belle and were able to bring so much to that brief scene. It’s too bad that the show doesn’t use them more; hope they get some good stuff in these last episodes.

    And, judging by the way Belle dropped Will’s hand and looked longingly after Rumple at the end of the scene, I think her plot device “romance” with Will is at an end. Will we ever find out what happened to Anastasia?

    • kirads09 says:

      Will we ever find out what happened to Anastasia? – I know. It is like she never existed for Will in OUAT and she was his one true love in Wonderland. :-( I would love to see her make an appearance – even if a flashback.