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Matt's Inside Line: Scoop on NCIS, Psych, White Collar, Rizzoli, Covert Affairs, Scandal and More!

NCIS Psych White Collar SpoilersWill NCIS fill in the blanks? Will a White Collar romance heat back up? Are things getting “Harry” on Psych? Which Monday Mornings doc copped a role on Rizzoli & Isles? Read on for answers to those questions plus teases from other shows.

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I know Gary Glasberg has mentioned we will see the events that led up to the cliffhanger with Gibbs in the NCIS finale. But will we also get to see what McGee, Tony and Ziva have been doing in their four-month absence? I’m eager to see how they adapted to life outside NCIS and without Gibbs’s rules (particularly Rule No. 12). –Cheryl
If I’m any good at reading between Glasberg’s lines, viewers will be made privy to at least some of that when Season 11 arrives. “The season opener is going to take us from where we left off all the way up to the point where we’re seeing Gibbs [behind a rifle],” he says, As for Tony, Ziva and McGee in particular, “There will be a portion in which they’re still resigned, and then it’ll develop from there. I don’t want to give too much away about the opener yet, but we’ll learn what happened with Tony and Ziva and McGee, I promise.”

I’m curious as to your thoughts on NCIS‘ baiting of “Tiva” fans without delivering. This season, especially, saw the showrunner pushing the notion of the couple becoming a reality, yet once again it did not happen. Even worse, [the finale] found them calling each other “friends,” the same label they applied to each other in Season 9’s “A Desperate Man.” Do you as a reporter find it difficult to see these things teased, when they never come fruition? Or do you think it’s just part of the game and “business as usual”? In addition, do you feel that at some point this bait-and-switch will impact viewership? –Dee
A very sound question, because as you note, I have long witnessed this to-and-fro as well. Quite honestly, I think NCIS and show boss Gary Glasberg face a tremendously difficult juggling act with this (would-be) couple because it is TV’s most watched program, and like a game of Jenga, you can’t be quite sure which slight move could send things toppling. Is NCIS No. 1 because it metes out exactly 25 milligrams of romance every third episode, and never a bit more? Is there a fear that going all-in with Tiva will soap up the show too much? Look at the comments sure to populate below; if one out of three is against the coupling, does that confirm the show would risk disenfranchising some 5 million viewers? (And if you do put them together, will the outcry nonetheless continue if “not enough” intimacy is displayed, a la Castle, presenting a no-win scenario?) All I can do on my end is press for some semblance of concrete evidence behind any loaded quotes (about any topic), then trust the show will follow through to some degree.

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White Collar’s Jeff Eastin had said the Neal/Sara faux engagement would “factor into the new episodes in a crucial way” and that “signs point to yes” in terms of seeing Sara again. With Bridget Regan being cast as Neal’s new love interest, I’m starting to worry about my favorite couple! Is there any news on if/when Hilarie will return? –Julie
When I spoke to Hilarie Burton last month (in the midst of her rabblerousing Grey’s Anatomy arc), she admitted to having “no idea what’s going on” with Sara’s possible return. That said, she agreed that we — and Neal — may need to miss Sara some in order to give her next appearance enough oomph. And the actress is always game for another go-round. “I talked to Matt [Bomer] and Willie [Garson] and Tiffani [Thiessen] over their hiatus and they really are the loveliest bunch of people,” she effused. “I never take that for granted.”

I know that there’s nothing new on the Castle front, so I’d love some scoop for Rizzoli & Isles. –MafaEmily_Swallow
Well, if you’re a fan of TNT dramas in general, I can share exclusively that Monday Mornings alum Emily Swallow (aka Dr. Michelle Robidaux) will guest-star in an August episode as Elizabeth Keating, the parole officer for someone involved in a deadly drag race on Paradise Road.

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Have we seen the last of Eion Bailey (Ben) and Anne Dudek (Danielle) on Covert Affairs? I really loved the chemistry that both of them had with Piper Perabo. –Johnny
Most likely not. As EPs Matt Corman and Chris Ord tell the Inside Line, “Both Ben and Danielle are extremely important figures in Annie’s life. We definitely haven’t seen the last of them.”

Do you know something about Castle or Scandal? This hiatus is killing me! –Martina
I’ll, um, play it safe and go with…. Scandal. If you suspect that, given the roller coaster events of the season finale, newly minted U.S. Attorney David Rosen has turned in his Gladiator card, you’d be right. Sharing his “personal theory” on the matter, Joshua Malina says, “Having spent the time he has with [Pope & Associates], he has newfound respect for them… and he went to school on them. Because he learned that if you really want to be effective – and that’s the sad story of his for the year – pure white hat-edness only gets you so far.” So although Rosen discovered that “getting down in the gutter and fighting dirtier” can get the job done, “I think he considers himself apart from — and possibly above” — Olivia, Abby et al. (Dem’s fighting words, right?)

Can anyone at TVLine.com shed a little light as to what’s going on in this Psych photo? Dule Hill posted it [on Facebook] and I’m very curious now. –EsteePsych_Season8_GusDespShawn
You bet your expecto patronum I’ve got light to shed. You see, the guys are going to “London” at some point in Season 8, so naturally Gus would find a reason to be in a Harry Potter costume, naturally Despereaux would show up (as we already scooped for you), and naturally there will be lots of action (hence the green screen behind them).

When is Arrow Season 2 coming out? –Tanya
When does Season 2 of Beauty and the Beast start? –Nichole
When will Season 3 of Once Upon a Time start? –David
Do you know when ABC’s Scandal will return ? –Stacie
Yeah, so…. The first network to cough up fall premieres dates last year didn’t announce until June 14; and in 2011, it took until June 20. So I’d say we have at least another week until I start building one of these.

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Of the pilots you have seen, is there anything you really seem keen on? –Brad
I’ve gotten to about six drama pilots thus far – and none of ABC’s, mind you (not that S.H.I.E.L.D. or Wonderland are available yet) – and thus far NBC’s The Blacklist (starring James Spader) and CBS’ Hostages (Toni Collette, Tate Donovan, Dylan McDermott) are topping that list. (Fox’s Sleepy Hollow was shaping up to possibly be a guilty pleasure until its final act uncorked a whole lotta brain-hurting hooey.) And out of the 10 comedies I have screened, Fox’s Brooklyn Nine-Nine (with Andy Samberg and Andre Braugher) and ABC’s Trophy Wife (starring Malin Akerman and Bradley Whitford) look strongest, while the jury’s out on how good CBS’ The Crazy Ones will be sans the “name” client (McDonald’s) and heavily used guest star (Kelly Clarkson) featured in the pilot.

If there’s a summer or fall show you’d like the Inside Line on, email InsideLine@tvline.com!

Comments are monitored, so don’t go off topic, don’t frakkin’ curse and don’t bore us with how much your coworker’s sister-in-law makes per hour. Talk smart about TV!

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809 Comments
  1. Drew says:

    Does anyone happen to know if season 2 of Saving Hope will be available in the US? If I recall correctly, NBC won’t be airing it. Does that mean that Hulu won’t have it either?

  2. Pam says:

    Anyone else get the feeling that this “Tiva” debate is just the same 3-5 posters using different names? Or maybe they are all just typing off a script.

  3. Mel says:

    Tony and Ziva is such a difficult topic. I would personally love the couple, but the writers would need to do it in a way that it doesn’t take the show away from what it is – a crime show. I vote the writers have them coupled out of work for a while before even revealing it to the audience and have it as a minor plot, with the same amount of tiva moments every 3 episodes…

  4. Hattie says:

    Tiva all the way! There have been romances on the show in the past (some really bad ones like Tony/Jean), what is the fear about putting Tiva together? I can’t understand why it would turn off even non-Tiva fans to have them get together because we know NCIS won’t overly focus on romance. I fear, however, that Tiva won’t get together until the finale because TPTB are too spooked.

  5. Lisa says:

    I am one person who actually likes the way Castle has handled the romance between Castle and Beckett. They’ve maintained the dynamic which makes the show successful, yet gave us doses of their relationship. Unlike so many shows out there. Many times, when they have a couple get into a relationship, there’s suddenly storylines repeatedly about one of them being kidnapped, or a killer being after one of them, or something that always puts one of them in some type of life threatening situation. I believe that is what makes the relationships so hard to do.

    Castle has wisely veered away from that, and shown that you can have a relationship on a TV show without the need to always make the storyline revolve around the relationship. Just like Ryan and Jenny come up in certain relevant situations, so does the relationship with Castle & Beckett. Castle & Beckett each do their job, and their relationship does not become the job.

    I think that if NCIS handled the situation with Ziva & Tony or perhaps Abby & McGee, it would appropriate to have them in a relationship. Some may feel it’s not enough, but there really does have to be a happy medium. Of course, one of the things I see, is that by the time they decide to actually bring them together, One of them may end up not renewing their contract. Honestly, I’m happy either way, their playful bantering or as a couple. I think their dynamic works well together with her teasing him, and him teasing her. Even in real life, people can flirt like crazy and never get into a relationship with their coworker.

    If they are going to go there though, I really think they should just come to a point where they decide to just do it, before it’s too late and one of them leaves the show.

    • Gabi says:

      why would they leave the show because the characters do or don’t get together? Each one of them loves their job and the cast. They’ve said it a billion times and the admit that they have much fun on the show.

      • Lisa says:

        I would never insinuate that an actor/actress would leave a show because their character didn’t have a relationship with another on the show. There have been many times already that the contracts have been up in the air. It’s idealistic to think that an actor/actress would never leave a show, even one they really love doing, but realistically, it DOES happen. Many times, they will leave because they end up typecast, or to explore something new. The point is, it CAN and DOES happen, regardless of how much they love their job and cast. My suggestion is go one way or the other before something like that happens. Most casts don’t last as long as theirs has without a major change. I just would hate to see them finally decide to go in the direction of a relationship, and lo and behold one of them doesn’t renew their contract.

  6. SAM says:

    Lillian, I think a lot of people who want to watch “Shabbat Shalom” and “Shiva” will watch those episodes again and again and again. Some people hate watching reruns of any sort. You have basketball playoff games, baseball games, and numerous other first run episodes or events going on right now. I simply think most people are going to elect to do other things than watch reruns this time of the year. It doesn’t change the fact that those two episodes were the best of the season. And it’s not just me saying it — I’ve yet to see or read any serious TV critic who bad mouthed either episode.

    Prediction: Look for both of those episodes to be shown quite often on the USA Network.

    • Kathi says:

      I totally agree SAM – I am a very dedicated fan and never miss a first run epiosode, but I rarely (if ever) watch a rerun during the season and never watch during summer hiatus. Too much other stuff to do this time of year & catching a rerun isn’t a priority especially when I can watch any episode any time thanks to my DVR & itunes season pass.

      I think anyone trying to use rerun viewer data as a basis of explaining how unpopular a character or pairing is stretching the limits especially given how technolgy has changed viewership in general.

      • Lillian says:

        Not stretching when in the past NCIS has averaged 13-15m in re-runs. I remember because I used to marvel at that. Curious. How many times has Jet Lag been on a USA marathon. Not as many times as you’d think.

        • Kathi says:

          yes, but how long ago was that? Get out of the past and into the present – even a couple of years ago the only way to see an episode again was to catch a rerun – thats no longer true. You can just about see any episode whenever you want – you don’t have to wait for the rerun.

          And USA airs older episodes more often, Why? Because they get them cheaper from the network. The older the episode, the less they pay in syndication fees & most shows don’t even consider showing recent seasons in syndication because they want the DVD sales.

          I don’t know know how many times JetLag has been shown on USA – but I am sure neither do you, so unless you have facts to back up that Tiva centric episodes don’t do as well as others in syndication, you should express your opinion as an opinion – not couch it as fact.

        • SAM says:

          Timing is everything. When you are showing a repeat against a first run anything, more often than not the repeat is going to lose out.

    • tatiana says:

      I agree with you SAM I’m not a tiva fan but I do love those episodes for me they were the best of the season 2, so they are saved on my TV so I don’t have to wait for re-run I can watch those episodes whenever I want.

  7. Ella says:

    I’m disappointed to hear Hilarie Burton doesn’t know when Sara will be back but I do agree with her that you don’t know a good thing till it’s gone. I’m hoping that realization will come to Neal sooner rather than later though because I adore her, both on the show and off. It’s great to know the cast gets along so well even when they’re not on set. Still wondering if Regan will turn out to be Sara’s missing sister, though that would be a bit squicky if Neal hit it off with both siblings. They *do* have a similar look though and that is a storyline WHITE COLLAR is yet to explore.

  8. Casey says:

    I was a loyal NCIS fan. But they teased Tiva one to many times. I didn’t even watch this year. . Has Tim had a date ever? Has tony in years? I know that romance isn’t the focus of the show but not including any personal stuff makes the characters seem 2-D and less real. Tiva should happen and I won’t be watching until it does.

  9. virginia says:

    i want sara ellis now… i want sara and neal together … i hope she will return in white collar season 5

  10. FionaL says:

    I’d want ‘Tiva’ to happen so we can get it over and done with. See that in the long run it wouldn’t work.

  11. Bark Star says:

    NCIS: Tiva is annoying and boring.

  12. Chocoholic says:

    @DeeJay, I absolutely, wholeheartedly agree with you. I guess you were commenting on Erin about Tony not being mature and all that?
    I do wonder if Gary is reasoning from the following POV (stated by Joss Whedon in the past):
    You should NOT give fans what they WANT, but what they NEED. That’s something I’d like to delve deeper into:
    So, there’s a huge group who’d love to see Tony & Ziva together (aka the WANT), but what do THEY (Gary and his writers) think we NEED? We’ve seen them apart, we’ve seen them opposed and it doesn’t work out.
    I remember a saying from Flashpoint (to be honest, I don’t remember if it was actually in the series or in a fanfiction). It was something like: We’ve tried being apart and it doesn’t work that way. It (the love between Sam and Jules) doesn’t go away.
    If I look at Tiva: They’ve forceably tried to be apart (remember when Vance split up the team wiht Tony on Sea, Ziva somewhere else and McGee…?), they’ve been opposed (the whole Rivkin story arc). In the end I guess it all boils down to what Tony said when they took Ziva back out of the hellhole she was in: I couldn’t live without you, I guess.
    Do we NEED to see what life Tony would have/had if Ziva wasn’t in the picture? We’ve already seen that (remember the flasbacks / potential futures when Gibbs was shot?). I think we’re way passed that point too. Tony has matured to a level where I don’t see such a thing (as in how it was portayed back then) happening either. He’s so different now.
    Do we NEED to see how Ziva could be if she was with another man? Didn’t we already tried that with…. what’s his name ( :grin: )?
    Do we NEED to see how Tony will react if Ziva would unfortunately be dead? We’ve seen that already. Referring back to the hellhole Ziva had been. Is mentioning the “Damocles” enough?
    Do we NEED to see how Ziva will react if Tony would unfortunately be dead (considered to be dead anywya). Hmmmm…. treading dangerous waters here. That’s something we haven’t really seen much of. Yes, there was that moment in Season…. 4 I think where his car blew up and everyone thought he was dead, but that was for such a short time, it couldn’t really have an impact on their lives. After all, shortly after his car was blown up he returned to NCIS HQ.
    Hmmm.. Did I just make a dangerous proposition? Darn!

    As for McGee and Abby. didn’t they already tried that? I vaguely remember something about them having a relationship, or was I wrong about that?

    • CA says:

      I’m pretty sure from the episode Life Before His Eyes, without Ziva, Tony was happily married with a baby.
      How did you see him? To me, he seemed happy.

      • Gabi says:

        lol that episode wasn’t even real !

      • Gabi says:

        and what i mean by real is that it wasn’t realistic. And everything happens for a reason, which is why Kate died and Ziva came on

        • anna says:

          yep, ziva gave Ari (who was a great villain btw) a window of opportunity to kill Kate so there would be a place for her on Team Gibbs….too bad we’ll never know why she was supposed to win Gibbs’s trust for daddy dearest as that storyline, along with most of the Brennan plots, seems to have been dropped

          • Gabi says:

            Right. Cause Ziva wanted to kill her own brother so that she could be on the team? Hahahah that’s funny.

          • 4luvofncis says:

            OMG, what universe are you living in??? Please go back and watch the entire series of NCIS. 1st, Ziva had nothing to do w/Ari killing Kate. She wasn’t even there. He was a double agent & when Ziva figured that out, she killed him before he could kill Gibbs. 2nd – those plot questions have all been answered. Refer to the first 3 episodes of season 7.

          • BB123 says:

            Soon, anti-Ziva will tell you that they killed Kate because Cote De Pablo wanted this role in NCIS and they just have to create Ziva and kill Kate. All of them forgetting that Sasha asked to leave the show.
            It’s getting ridiculous.

          • srsly says:

            Gabi, it’s canon. Ziva killed Ari to get on Gibbs’ good graces to get onto his team. Maybe if you spent more time paying attention to the show and less time fantasizing your own version and trying to inflict the rest of us with it, you’d understand the show better.

          • Gabi says:

            Could you please NOT be rude? I’m so sick of Ziva haters being so rude about everything. Talking to me as if I’m stupid. Just stop. Cause season 3 and 4? I didn’t ship Tiva yet, so I was obviously NOT focused or on the two of them. So just stop being so rude and leave it alone. I know Gary and the producers hate when “fans” speak so low of the hard working actors and actresses.

          • anna says:

            @gabi – as has been pointed out in s6, ziva had orders from Eli to kill Ari so she wasn’t just his ‘handler’. her further orders were to gain Gibbs’s trust.

            @4luv – it has never been documented by the show specifically exactly when ziva arrived in DC during S2. Since she was Ari’s handler and had prepared histories on the whole of Team Gibbs for her 1/2 brother, since she also spent time finding him places to hide and just ‘handling’ him, it is quite logical to assume that she was there prior to the killing of Kate. she definitely didn’t look like she’d just checked in when she was swimming in the pool.
            beyond that those plot ‘questions’ were never answered….ziva pulled the daddy card on Gibbs and the story line, as brought up by Vance when they returned from Israel, was dropped

          • 4luvofncis says:

            Anna, srsly, you’re version of the show is grossly inaccurate. I’m amazed that you’ve thought this this long. Ziva arrived in DC in Kill Ari I. This is clear. Ziva had nothing to do with Kate’s death. This is clear. Eli sent her to DC to be Ari’s handler. He also sent her there to gain the trust of NCIS if Ari needed to be “dealt” with if it came to that. This is discussed in Aliyah between Vance & Gibbs. But Ziva did not believe he was a double agent nor that he had killed Kate. This is clear in the dialogue in both Ari episodes. Not until she over heard with her own ears at Gibbs’ house did she realize/believe he was a traitor. And she killed him to save Gibbs’ life. This is discussed between Ziva and Gibbs in Reunion. Unless you don’t the believe the writing, in which case, there’s really nothing anyone can say to help you see the truth. What storyline was dropped? All of this was dealt with in Aliyah, Truth or Consequences, Reunion, & Good Cop/Bad Cop.

          • Lillian says:

            @4luv, if you watched Shalom, you should remember that Ziva told Gibbs she set up the cabin as a safe house for Ari for his mission in Bete Noir, well before Kate was killed. It was a safe house that was set up personally, without Mossad’s knowledge, so while we may have met her in Kill Ari 1, she was in the US before that. I’ll let others argue how or why her actions or lack thereof could have contributed to Kate’s death, I don’t agree on all points, just feel some are valid.

          • 4luvofncis says:

            I stand corrected, Lillian, thank you. I didn’t remember that part. But it’s a far cry from making the assumption based simply on the fact that she’d been there before that ZIva was involved in Kate’s death especially when it was a significant plot point that she reiterated over & over attesting to Ari’s innocence, believing that he was on her side/Mossad’s side/her father’s side, & that he had nothing to do with it, only to be proven wrong later.

          • SAM says:

            Great piece of fiction Anna. You should flip a coin with the person who was pushing that “theory” around for awhile and see which of you gets to write the story for some fan fiction site.

    • L. Burke says:

      Why do fans continuity forget Tony WAS engaged and in a long-term relationship with Wendy? They were together for years before she dumped him at the alter because of her issues. Tony gets called out for being immature but Ziva and Abby demonstrate the EXACT same behavior he does and doesn’t get half the ‘immature’ comments thrown their way character wise. How about you show me ONE long term relationship Ziva or Abby has pulled off and maybe I’ll think about jumping on the shipper train. Ziva’s got capital “I” issues. I’d rather see the writers stick her in therapy and have her date Tony right now. As the last two episodes of the season demonstrated if they tried it would be a Gibbs/Jenny worthy train-wreck.

      • anna says:

        Not all fans – just the tiva ones….
        It’s the same as some forget that she uses sex as an interrogation tool at times…they like to see this ‘tiva’ crap as a huge harlequin romance where they are saving themselves for each other…I’ve even seen the words ‘pencil kiss’ & cuddle sex used for ziva

      • kendall says:

        Can I just say that having a relationship with someone for a long time is not a sign of maturity.
        I’ve been married for ten years & my husband is often more immature than my six years old son, but I do agree with you about Abby mainly and ziva needs therapy or talk to someone because there is no way that a person go through all that without exploiting and I think she exploded this season when she went looking for ilan.
        For me the entire team is immature including palmer and sometimes ducky too, but that’s okay I love the team as it is & i would not change anything about any of them, I think they complemented each other very well.

  13. Voice of Truth says:

    I used to watch NCIS and stopped because I can’t stand the endless Tiva shilly-shallying. I’m not a fan of Tiva, and to me, the fact there was some stupid Tiva scene tacked on to each episode ruined the balance of the show for me. It got to the point where I wanted them to do Tiva just to get it over with because watching two grown people have this pathetic ongoing ‘thing’ for years on end was irritating and boring. I think Tony and Ziva would make a terrible couple. I think their ‘relationship’, such as it is, has already ruined what was once a lovely show. I don’t think the majority of viewers care much one way or another whether they get together and would watch the show anyway – it’s the vocal minority of Tiva fans who have made such a huge fuss that the show thinks it’s now the be all and end all and has to be in every single episode.

    I think MW was spot on in his comments on the Tiva relationship, which virtually every single Tiva fan dismissed as him ‘trolling’ because they don’t agree with his view of Ziva as a dangerous woman who hasn’t been particularly nice to Tony and isn’t good for him. Their view of Tiva is some hopelessly romanticized wish fulfillment where their tragically damaged princess can behave incredibly badly and be forgiven over and over again by all around her, particularly Clown Prince Tony who keeps coming back for more of her barbed comments, putdowns, anger management issues, and violent behavior. His development has been stifled because apparently he can’t have any plot line that isn’t about her. She, on the other hand, gets plenty.

    But the show has put all its characters into a straitjacket, and none of them compare favorably to their early years. It’s formulaic, poorly written, and badly acted for the most part these days. I think we’ll see a ratings drop next season when its got some decent competition for the first time in a few years. It doesn’t deserve to be number one in the ratings – it deserved it most when it wasn’t, back in the early seasons when the plots were exciting and the characterizations hadn’t turned into caricature.

    I fully expect Tiva to happen once NCIS’s ratings drop because we’ll see Glasberg and Co writing increasingly desperate Tiva scenes to try and win people back, which will just alienate more people because the show isn’t and never has been about this couple. So the Tiva fans probably don’t have too long to wait for their tedious pairing to become reality. Then the ratings will drop even more, as half the Tiva fans are actually fans of UST and despite wanting their completely unsuited couple to get together they won’t hang around for long after, and those who dislike Tiva will disappear altogether. Then the show will be cancelled and everyone can be happy!

    • SAM says:

      While I agree with you that Glasberg will undoubtedly put Tony and Ziva together when faced with declining ratings, I am amused that you believe it hasn’t deserved to be #1 these last few years when it faced no competition, but did early on. The only season that a significant plurality of people seemed to think that everything was off kilter was Season 9, but even at that, the ratings have been pretty steady, overall, for the last four seasons. You compete against whatever is thrown against you. Is it NCIS’ fault that other networks couldn’t or wouldn’t throw “decent competition” against them?

      The main reason why I expect Tony and Ziva to finally enter a relationship is because the show is entering its 11th season and simply cannot expect to stay on the air much longer. If it’s slipping, then it’s in good company — when M*A*S*H and Cheers both entered their 11th seasons, they were still pretty much on top of the world, or close to it — and TPTB for both decided shortly after doing so that they would end things at the close of that particular season. It would not surprise me if NCIS elects to do the same thing shortly after this upcoming season starts up

      • Voice of Truth says:

        It’s both tiresome and irrelevant to ask if it’s NCIS’s ‘fault’ it hasn’t had any competition and hardly the point. Who on earth is talking about blame in this respect? The point is it hasn’t, who cares why, and has therefore had a free run at the ratings. It did very well off the back of its early seasons being re-run on USA 24/7, which happened to coincide with a lack of good competition for viewers on Tuesday nights for a few years. Now it’s getting a challenge from S.H.I.E.L.D and about time too because it’s done NCIS no good to have Tuesday nights to itself and the proof of that is in the poor writing and belief they’re doing something good when by all objective standards the show is a poor facsimile of how it started out and has become repetitive and formulaic.

        I’ve noticed that most Tiva fans are more than happy to contemplate the end of the show if it means they finally get their boring pairing. No surprises there as NCIS has always been solely about Tiva to the majority of Tiva fans, and those same Tiva fans have never understood that other people watch for other reasons and that many of us have found the increasing focus on Tiva off-putting and unpalatable given the way the show has portrayed Ziva since mid-S6. I was never than keen on her before then, but she became a completely unbelievable character after that point. Her continuing fatal flaws of disloyalty to the team, inability to control her anger, and spoiled brat behavior have created problem after problem for the team, making it simply beyond belief that the Gibbs of S1 and 2 would put up with her presence anywhere near them. Hopefully she’ll bring them all down in the end, because I’ve never seen a more corrupt bunch of LEOS portrayed as the supposed ‘heroes’ of a show than the NCIS team, and that is one aspect that has become worse and worse. Are we really supposed to cheer these people on in their corrupt agenda? The show seems to think it’s okay for them to enact their personal dramas at work and take their revenge against whoever upsets them because they are the TEAM, but when they arrest people for doing the same thing and expect to keep our sympathy then no. Just no. The team is corrupt to its core, from Gibbs on down.

        I’d just be glad if the show was put out of its creative stagnation by ending – thus freeing up the magnificent Mr. Weatherly to embark on other TV projects where his talents can be put to better use. I’d be more than happy to see Pauley Perrette, David McCallum and Mark Harmon in different roles as well. Their schtick on this show has become tired and old.

        • SAM says:

          I don’t happily contemplate the end of NCIS. I accept it as the natural course of things. Things start, things end. People are born, people die. Circle of life, etc. Shows have their shelf life and NCIS has pretty much reached the end of theirs, which would be the case with or without Tiva being a part of it.

          I also watch the show for other reasons as do other Tiva fans. Your generalization is off base, as is, IMO, your view of Ziva. But hey, have it and express it if you like. I don’t mind, nor do I mind if other people are watching the show for other reasons. As diverse as this world is, I would be surprised if all were watching for the exact same thing.

          What I do mind are those who find fault with those who watch the show for Tiva and then proceed to complain about it and us as being the reason for the show’s decline. We should all decline the way they have, remaining as high in the ratings as they have with the number of people watching it — like it or not, the people watching must like because, by and large, they keep watching. The numbers fluctuated this season at this time of the year like they have, by and large, for the past four to five years.

          I’ll actually go along with you, at least to some extent, about the stagnation regarding creativity, which started becoming really noticeable last season. But the very thing that would actually help spark creativity all the way around is the thing that you and the members of your minority don’t want to see — Tony and Ziva together. I know you’ll disagree with that statement — go ahead. But I feel as strongly about it as you do and believe I’m as right about it as you do. There the matter stands.

          The only other thing that I’ll say is that for all of your complaints about Ziva, and those of people such as yourself, the fact remains that de Pablo’s Q rating is only a hair less than that of Pauley Perrette’s. That’s an indication that the actress is quite popular, that the character she plays is quite popular, and why if there’s any way the network can work a deal for her to remain with the show, they’re going to do it. Dislike her all you want, your view seems to be the minority viewpoint, and will remain so for quite some time to come.

          • Voice of Truth says:

            Tiva is hardly a spark of creativity as it’s been going on for years now. It’s old and tired if anything. And the fact that you think THAT will reinvigorate the show is indicative of just how blinded by Tiva you and your ilk are. There is a whole other show out there! How about a plotline where Tony has a problem with the vigilantism creeping into the team – he was the one badly affected by having a dirty partner in Baltimore, after all. And the team IS dirty, from Gibbs on down. How about a plotline where Abby and Ducky have to work together to save Jimmy? How about a plotline where Gibbs finds out he isn’t superhuman, after all – that he’s got some medical condition that forces Tony to step up more as leader? How about a plotline where a really scary villain, unrelated to them personally, divides the team, causing them to question their motivations and past history with each other? How about a plotline where one of them is in some honest-to-god danger, that isn’t an excuse for goo-eyes and romance? How about a plot where someone, finally, holds Ziva accountable for her actions because I can’t remember that happening since about Witch Hunt.

            There are any number of creative sparks they could use. The fact is that no matter what you SAY, you never show any interest in any aspect of the show except Tiva so of course to you that’s the ‘creative spark’ it needs. At this point, I’d say NCIS needs Tiva like it needs a hole in the head, but by all means bring it on. It’s a tired old show that needs putting out of its misery and I have no doubt that a big dose of Tiva will hasten the end, even if the death throes will be a horrible kind of agony.

          • L. Burke says:

            “How about a plotline where Abby and Ducky have to work together to save Jimmy?” YES!! Can I have a main dish of this with possibly a little Tony and Tobias team-up episode on the side to go please? Some of these ARE great ideas!! Way better than them beating the dead horse that is Mossad intrigue- again. Eli is dead. Let the show finally bury the Mossad nonsense with him. If they want to do intrigues just bring back Kort and the CIA who I live to HATE so much better.

          • srsly says:

            Voice of Truth, your post is absolutely brilliant!!! I love your suggestions for optional plot lines. The writers are so boxed in and show no signs of originality. NCIS has a fantastic ENSEMBLE and needs to start using it the way it was designed back in DPB’s days. The characters need to be characters and not the pigeonholed caricatures they have been reduced to to sell the Ziva wank. The stories used to be tight, quirky and fun, even when they were serious. Now, it’s as if the characters can barely tolerate each other, especially the two who are allegedly meant for each other, and their integrity has been thrown down the hopper by GG.

        • SAM says:

          This response is directed to some comments of yours that I’m not sure were directed at me or not, If not, fine. But if they were — regarding never having expressed an interest in any other aspect of the show other than Tiva — simply not true. I have commented on many of the other characters, and have gone in depth on more than a few of them, on sites you might have access to and ones you would not. I have watched the show from practically the beginning and I will be there when it ends, because I have enjoyed watching it. Have there been episodes that I have enjoyed more than others? Of course. Have there been seasons that have been better than others? Naturally. On the whole, I have been impressed by the whole body of work they have managed to turn in over these past ten seasons. Everybody involved can take satisfaction in the work they have turned in over that period of time. They have my respect, and for more than a few of them, my deepest admiration for what they have done.

          Again, if that particular post was not directed at me, my apologies. If it was, I’m sorry, but you were mistaken. Tiva is only one of the many reasons why I watch this show. I don’t believe it has hurt it one bit. You feel otherwise. And there it stands.

    • SAM says:

      Oh, I would also dispute your claim that Tiva fans are a vocal minority. I think that it’s actually the anti Tiva people who are the minority. I’m not sure that I would go so far as to say that Tiva fans are the majority, but these days I think they are a significant plurality — perhaps they have been that for a while and are just making their presence known and felt more these days than in the past. I think the majority of people probably don’t care whether they get together or not, but unlike the anti Tiva minority, they are not vehemently against their getting together.

      • Voice of Truth says:

        Both Tiva and anti Tiva fans are a minority. It’s not an either/or situation and as neither of us can count the numbers it’s pointless to speculate. Tiva fans are significant – but so are those against the pairing, otherwise there wouldn’t be pointless threads like this where we all waste our time boosting Matt’s hit rate the way he knows will happen every time he posts anything about Tiva. Because it IS that divisive and there ARE enough people on both sides to do this kind of battle for pages on end.

        • SAM says:

          We are both minorities compared to those who don’t care about the pairing one way or the other. Based on my observations over the last couple of years, it would seem that the number of those favoring the pairing are larger than those against it at this point. By a wide margin? No. A comfortable one? Probably. Both sides are vocal and persistent, that’s for sure.

        • John says:

          Much like Bud and whoever I’m agnostic on Tony and Ziva.

          As to their back and forth I found Kate and he to be the more entertaining pair. While his undercover romance had far more romantic chemistry. IMHO anyway.

          For whatever reason its NCIS: L. A. that much to my surprise is now my must watch of that franchise….

          • JC says:

            I agree that Tony had the most chemistry with Jeanne. I wish that relationship had been real rather than an undercover one. And yeah, I too prefer Kate to Ziva. I don’t hate Ziva as a character (honestly, for all the complaints about her in the comments, I don’t think she’s any more flawed than any of the other characters) but I just prefer Sasha as an actress. Fortunately she’s on Rizzoli & Isles these days and I love watching her and Angie Harmon play off each other. :)

          • JC says:

            Oh and I meant to say – I completely agree on NCIS LA. It had a shaky start, but it’s definitely become one of my favorites.

          • John says:

            @JC- Thanks, though I’d suggest the romance became real, though tragically doomed.

          • Darlene says:

            Well, that would be kind of interesting. That way everyone who cares (for Tiva or against Tiva) could have their way. I don’t want to see that, but it would bring and end to the push/pull – one big push toward, one equally big pull against, and then…?

          • JC says:

            @John – you’re right. It did become real. I just wish it had turned out better.

  14. Memo says:

    How can anyone take seriously anything that Michael Weatherly says? He us the man who stuffed a coffee cup down the front of his pants on national tv. Drops his pants in interviews & pretended to smoke a bong on late might tv. He is always tweeting pics of himself. He is an attention hound & will do or say anything that will bring him the most attention at any given moment.

    • Voice of Truth says:

      You hang off every word Cote says because she supports your pairing, but dismiss Michael in this way because he doesn’t. Every time MW has said something that be construed as even remotely supportive of Tiva, then the Tiva fans have been all over him like a rash, but whenever he doesn’t you accuse him of trolling and being an ‘attention hound’. I’m sure you wouldn’t mind his humor if he spent half his time telling anyone who’ll listen how adorable Ziva/Tiva/Cote is and how much he can’t wait for Tiva to happen. I suspect that THEN he’d be viewed as God’s Gift to Tiva fans and you’d be fawning all over him.

      • memo says:

        huh, shows what you know and that you assume too much. I am not a Tiva fan. I don’t oppose them, but I am not crying for them to get together either. I don’t care one way or the other. I watch the show for Gibbs and Ducky. I don’t like Weatherly. Never have, never will. I think he is an insecure little boy trapped in the body of an aging, balding and slightly overweight man. He is on his last hurrah before younger, more talented and better looking men step into his shoes. He is trying to get his name and his picture in print as much as possible. His time in the spot light is short and he knows it. I despise the way you take someone’s words and turn them to fit your own agenda. You think he walks on water – I don’t. My opinion of him is just as valid as yours and I could give a rats pattootie about his views on Tiva pro or con.

        • Voice of Truth says:

          How is me making assumptions about you based on what you’ve said here any different from you making assumptions about MW based on his articles and interviews? Despise away, but you’re despising yourself too!

          I don’t think MW walks on water so you’re just as wrong in your assumptions about me. I don’t even think he’s the best actor on the show (David McCallum is, by FAR), and frankly I’ve found his acting choices as Tony in the past few years to be poor and self-indulgent unless he’s called upon to do something emotional, with more depth, when he’s shone. That said, I don’t rate any of them for their acting in the past few years, DM aside. MH shows flashes of brilliance but often seems to be walking through the show in his sleep, PP is mainly good at the bouncy Abby schtick but can’t sell emotional depth for toffee, SM’s screen presence is non-existent, as is his role these days. CdP smirks and mugs and wobbles her chin but never inhabits the reality of her character remotely. They all would benefit from moving on to a less lazy, privileged environment.

          • memo says:

            Because you assumed because I don’t like MW that I have to be a Tiva fan and that I hang on every word spoken by Cote. Read your own comments to my first post which had ZERO references to Tiva or Cote or Ziva for that matter. I was stating my opinions on MW and his vanity and you took it elewhere to fit your agenda that because he doesn’t support Tiva – that just HAS to be the reason why I don’t like him which is far from the truth.

          • Gabi says:

            Idk why some of you guys watch this show, you guys bash on the characters and talk about how they make bad choices, so now you’re also hating on the writers. Nice. If I had an opinion like that about a tv show, I wouldn’t waste my time watching. In my opinion, NCIS is at its highest right now. I think it’s doing VERY well and I’m loving it.

        • Voice of Truth says:

          Memo – go back and read your post, then mine, then yours, then report back on the result of your reading comprehension test.

    • anna says:

      shrug….it would be the same as taking anything cdp does or says seriously because, you know, she always has to pose sexily whenever there’s a camera pointed at her (including during the show). Add to that how she always drapes herself around any of her male co-stars (MH, MW, BD, SM mostly)….throw in that live chat she did where she fangirled enough about MW to fan the flames of the MOTE shippers- who are a very very scary bunch, btw….attention hound would be her too

      • Gabi says:

        @anna
        Seriously?!?! You’re gonna now hate on the actress, Cote too? Wtf? Your argument here is that she CAN pose in front of a camera and look beautiful and that she has an AMAZING relationship with her co-workers? Cause yes, all of that is true.

        • We see Pauley doing the exact same thing that Cote does and they don’t hate on Pauley for that….they just hate on Cote. It’s a double standard with them. Just ignore them. :-)

          • Voice of Reason says:

            In recent pics, I have seen Mark Harmon with his hands around Pauley’s waist, and another pic of him with his arms around Cote. How come we aren’t seeing an avalanche of haters turn on him?!?! I know why – because the supposed reasons the haters use for disliking the way Cote behaves are actually just a cover for the fact that they don’t like anything about her or Ziva. Someone else can do the exact same thing that Cote/Ziva does, and they don’t mind. It is blind hatred with so much bias it isn’t even funny and should not be given a second thought. And it is pathetic. And I hope TPTB realize this about that faction of the fandom, and pay them NO mind!

          • Gabi says:

            Mhm. People are just getting on my nerves. Cote and Michael are my babiiieess. I have SO much love for them and it hurts when people talk about them like this.

          • anna says:

            Marla that’s a crock and you know it…take a hard & honest look at the walk of fame pictures and how cdp is hanging on MH….
            Also look at still from episodes where everyone is in character but cdp is posing…no double standard…just an honest look at how the pictures look

          • Voice of Truth says:

            Then don’t go on the internet, Gabi, if you are so easily upset. That’ll save you being hurt by comments about your babiiiieess in future. Because there’s absolutely no reason why your feelings should be first and foremost in everyone’s minds when they express their perfectly valid opinions that just don’t happen to be the same as yours.

          • Anna, clearly you only zoom in on Cote while I see the whole cast at various events. Agian I wll repeat, Pauley does the exact same thing that Cote does at those events, but clearly you don’t want to see that at all. Mark looks out for Pauley and Cote, as evidenced by him putting hisarms around them at the Walk of Fame event, where Mark stated that the show really improved when Cote joined the cast, and then he did it again during CBS Upfronts in NYC in May, and those are just a couple of instances as there are more pictures from them over the last eight years. Pictures don’t lie, :-)

        • anna says:

          Gabi, I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt because of how young you are …it’s not hating on someone to critique how they pose – watch a model shoot & you’ll see what I mean….or take a drama class in school.

          & oh yeah – amazing is just one way to describe her when it comes to her & the cast

        • SAM says:

          Anna has disliked Cote and has said these sorts of things against her for quite some time now. Again, give her props for consistency.

          • Gabi says:

            I’m not giving her props for anything. She’s just been rude to me and many other people on here. And I really don’t appreciate that.

          • Gabi says:

            Anna and Voice of “Truth” are honestly THE meanest people I’ve ever encountered online. I’ve been online, blogging about it for about 2 and a half years now and I’ve had a VERY good experience, yes even with Tiva and Ziva haters. But you 2? So rude,

          • Voice of Truth says:

            Many thanks, Gabi. LOL! Although I would point out, in the ‘meanness’ stakes, that we’re not the ones blithely throwing out the ugly and unfounded accusations of racism and xenophobia, and we’re not the ones accusing everyone who doesn’t agree with us of being sock puppets. I would imagine a good deal of your discomfort is derived from the fact we don’t agree with you and in time you’ll learn not to take that emotionally.

            I note again that you’ve jumped on Anna’s comments about Cote, but the previous comments by a poster on this thread about Michael’s behavior and him being an attention whore remain unchallenged by ANY Tiva fan here. If it had been me saying that about Cote, the Tiva fans would have been all over me, jumping up and down and stomping their feet and berating me. The lack of interest Tiva fans repeatedly show in either defending Michael or understanding Tony shows once again, that Tiva is entirely about Ziva. Tony just exists to be there for your princess.

            However, I have the feeling you are very young, Gabi, and probably have some age-appropriate romantic notions about relationships that influence your posts. I therefore regret not being gentler in my replies just to you.

          • Gabi says:

            I never agreed to anything Anna said, I don’t think Michael Weatherly is anything close to that, I think they’re all awesome people. I just stopped trying to kind of defend them because I was so tired of everyone being rude. Yes, I’m young, but I don’t think it has anything to do with me liking tiva. I just love this show and it makes me sad that fans are this divided about something like this. So I stopped caring about what people were posting and just kept on shipping Tiva <3 but if that was an apology… ? Accepted.

      • Gina says:

        Anna I would love to thank you because it’s been a while since I laughed so much.
        Now having said that, I feel the need to share with you this information that apparently you don’t know yet, but when you love, care and respect someone, you show your love kissing, hugging and touching.
        It’s not just Cote, pauley, michael, mark, brian and sean do the same thing, you can go to google and see pictures of pauley kissing and hugging Cote, pauley kissing and hugging Michael and mark, you do that when you care about someone, you also fangirl about that person because you want others to appreciate it them as much as you do.
        Now if you go to youtube and watch criminal minds interviews, you will realize that the actors act the same way cote, pauley, michael and mark do, because they have been friends for 8 years, they work together over 12 hours five days a week or more.
        Maybe you should to try it too, hugging and kissing your friends and family will make you feel much better trust me.
        To wrap up I would love to tell you because maybe you don’t know, but Cote is from chile, she is hispanic, and we latinos kissed, hugged, move our hands as we speak, and sometimes talk loud, we kiss when we say hello and kiss when we say goodbye. Now please can u stop hating on someone you don’t know and has done nothing to you?

        A lot of kisses and hugs for you!!!

        • Gabi says:

          Gina
          HahHahahahahahahaha you made me laugh just now. You’re so right. I’m trying to tell her but she doesn’t like me very much. Cause apparently I was rude. But really, she doesn’t like Ziva because she’s ABUSIVE Gina, abusive. Ahhh people make me laugh.

          • Gina says:

            gabi,
            me too I’m laughing like crazy, you just have to go and watch interviews to see that is not only cote.
            Hey michael just kissed Sharon Osbourne on the mouth, I was the only one who saw that interview??
            But even so if michael, mark and pauley has no problems with being hugged or kissed why would that bothers you?

          • Gabi says:

            Hahahha, you see Gina here gets it! Thanks Gina you totally understand my point.

          • Gina says:

            Gabi there is nothing better than kissing and hugging, life is too short, so I advise you to kiss and hug your friends and family and tell them how much you love then, let anna keep hating someone who she don’t know and that is clearly loved by her peers.

            oxoxox

          • Gabi says:

            Yes Gina! I’m Hispanic too, so I know what you’re saying :)) hahaha. I just don’t see how some people can have so much hate for 1) a fictional character, and 2) an actress that they don’t know.

          • Gina says:

            Hey neither do I

            I agree with you, when I hate a character or an actor, I change my tv to another channel. I do not go to webpages to comment on how bad they are. Because you never know who is reading, what if the actor read your comment. Why make a person feel bad?

            No hagas a otros lo que no quieres que te hagan a ti.

            I’m going to bed now, it has been a pleasure chatting with you gabi

    • 4luvofncis says:

      So there is someone else out there that doesn’t take MW seriously, lol, without any investment whatsoever in TIVA. And yet you were automatically categorized as for TIVA because you don’t take him literally, & it has to be because he doesn’t support “your pairing,” (even though it isn’t) instead of because it’s quite possible & equally feasible that he actually is being sarcastic & his comments don’t really reflect how he genuinely feels about something.

  15. Kate says:

    Probably the reason that Michael Weatherly announced that this was going to be “The Year of Tiva” was because, well, it was. There was nothing else for Tony. At the beginning of each season they usually sit down with the actors and discuss where they will be heading and he would have seen that there was no growth or arc for his character other than to support and idolize Ziva. He used to love discussing Tony and where he sees the character going but I can’t remember the last time he did that with any excitement. Maybe the Baltimore episode?

    As someone who despises Tiva I find Tiva fans purely selfish. Gary Glasberg seems to bend himself over backwards trying to keep them happy and still they complain that it’s not enough. He seems to have delivered on everything that he promised. IT WAS THE FREAKING YEAR OF TIVA, and it was BORING AS HELL to someone who doesn’t like that couple. I think they’re the worst couple on the whole of TV. Other than a forced ‘moving closer’ moment shoved in here and there I can’t even see that they like each other, let alone love each other.

    Far, far, far too much of them this season to the detriment of the rest of the team and actors. This was the first season I stopped watching live and there’s even episodes that I didn’t bother to go back and watch. If season 11 is much of the same I doubt I’ll be tuning in for that. Which makes me really REALLY sad as NCIS used to be the ONLY show I watched and I always used to imagine how heartbreaking it would be when it finally finished. But all the relationships I once tuned in for have been missing from the show for years now. Ever since Tiva raised its ugly head and its demanding fans became the chosen ones to have their relationship play out in scenes in every single freaking episode.

    • Voice of Truth says:

      Hi Kate, I agree with you – your frustration is similar to my own. To see the Tiva fans whining on about Tiva not happening when it’s been happening all the time on the show to the point of unbalancing it completely is galling. Tiva doesn’t have to be kissing and bedroom times to be shoehorned into every single episode in some tedious way that makes me roll my eyes and turn off the TV. I used to love Tony/Gibbs, Ducky/Abby and Tony/Abby interactions but it seems like the only relationship the show is interested is Ziva/Tony with Ziva/Gibbs in a distant second place. All the rest of the show’s relationships have been short changed as a result and I get no real sense of team cohesion at all. The show only listens to the Ziva and Tiva fans – it’s alienated the rest of us beyond endurance, so it’s hardly surprising we’ve left the show altogether or downgraded our viewing of it from ‘must see’ to ‘sometimes, when I can be bothered, and if there’s nothing else on.’

      • L. Burke says:

        THIS!! As far as I’m concerned the Tiva fans can get in line. I’ve been patiently waiting for the backstory about how Tony and Tobias knew each other before Tony joined NCIS for YEARS. I think that goes back to season two or three they hinted Tony and Tobias worked together. It either had to be Philly or Baltimore crime family case because it’s the only thing that fits the time line. It would be kind of nice to see them send Ziva in to therapy to deal with her issues and maybe let Tony’s years of infiltrating organized crime come in plot wise. It would be a nice shake up.

  16. Tory says:

    I believe that the Tiva storyline has been developed and pushed to,the detriment of the entire show. In addition, the focus has led to too many soap opera-ish moments (thanks to the terrible lead of Shane Brennan) and to the too many stories focused on the greatness of Ziva and her tragic ties to the Mossad. I’m so tired of Israel being brought in and I’m so tired of so ,any Ziva focused stories.

    I’m a Tony fan and even too many stories about him grate, just like all the Gibbs back stories that just get the timelines mixed up and cause fans to get angry.

    Too much Tiva has led to a degeneration in story lines. We no longer see the subtle friendship shown with just a look between Gibbs and Tony, nor are there scenes showing friendship between Tony and Abby. If this is the character growth that so many Tiva fans believe is good for the show, then thanks for its destruction.

    Even bending reality for the sake of a TV show does not make it possible for,these two characters to be in a romance and to serve n the same team. Myers, they can both be employed at NCIS, but Gibbs will have to lose one of the team members for Tiva to be a reality.

  17. Mary Beth says:

    Do you realize Gary Glasberg’s already talking about Ziva returning? Last year, Michael Weatherly hasn’t signed his contract either. Cote will, just as Michael did. This contract-tempest-in-a-teacup is meant to build tension for the next season. As for the “Tiva” pairing, I like the banter, and Ziva’s character is eminently more interesting than Kate’s character ever was.

  18. Rodge1978 says:

    Yesterday was my first day visiting TV Line, so I was unaware of the spam-like comments about NCIS ( I don’t watch it). At least now I know to avoid any article that even mentions NCIS. Maybe TV Line should only do full articles about NCIS ( instead of including it with other shows) that way those fans can pointlessly debate with each other on their own page. Plus, does anyone know why TV Line has no Like or Dislike options for comments?

    • BB123 says:

      That’s isn’t the purpose of that article. TV Line has a “tradition” of article where readers ask for spoilers and question about shows. It’s a Q&A and could involve many shows. Also, most of TVLine readers like more than one show. If I only commented about NCIS, I also enjoy Castle and Psych and the tidbid about the pilots. 3 of my shows and future shows in one place That’s awesome.

      • Rodge1978 says:

        I get the concept, I just don’t get the constant shipper debate on this page. Do they think they are changing each others minds? To me it seems like a complete exercise in futility. It seems like the NCIS shippers highjacked a comment section about 10 different shows. Seriously, look at all the comments 98% of them are the same. Why not just have a separate NCIS page that way they won’t be bothered by people that want to discuss other shows. I had to cancel my email notifications because of the great tiva debate. But I learn fast, and I’ll just never link to a page that mentions NCIS ( even if it includes a show I like).
        BTW, I love Castle and Psych as well.

        • BB123 says:

          As a veteran reader, if you’re not invested in it do not ask for notification when

          – Ships are mention about Once Upon a Time (they’re worst than NCIS. They’re antiShip VS Ship war AND a war between at least 3 ships (I don’t watch Once Upon a Time yet. In my watchlist but haven’t had time to watch it yet).
          – Caskett and interpretation of the character’s motivations (can be as bad as this one). And the idiotic complains about the lack of intimacy. (I don’t remember who said that Castle’s fan can be spoil brat…As a fan of the show myself, I have to say, that it’s true for a part of the fandom)
          – Grey’s Anatomy (mostly about Callie and Arizona and Shonda Rhimes evilness)
          – Glee (shipper war all the way !)
          – Bones could also become very very dangerous this hiatus after that season finale.

          I think they are other shows that are like that, but that ones are the ones that I noticed personally.

          Maybe that’s why they can’t create a board only for NCIS fans because we aren’t the most active ones. (I think OUAT or Glee hold the title but I can be wrong).

          TVLine seems mostly read by very invested and devoted fans.

          • Rodge1978 says:

            I know on a different guide for tv website Supernatural and TVD fans are the same way. Do you know why TV Line has no Like or Dislike options? I think that would cut down on the repeat comments ( they could just “Like” the comments , as opposed to replying). I only got email notifications because I watch a few of the other shows and I was blindsided by the NCIS fans ( they aren’t that vocal on that other guide website).

  19. Annie says:

    No Tiva, please. More Tim McGee!

  20. Jennifer says:

    Love Tiva and very excited to see how Season 11 progresses. I don’t feel played at all as a shipper. I am really liking what I am seeing.

  21. Jamie says:

    I stopped watching NCIS because the show lost its way ages ago. I missed when it was more focused on the team and the interesting cases. Now It has become too predictable, it lacks creativity, and Tony and Ziva are too all in your face with the will they won’t they. It’s boring. The show will never be what it once was so I say let the ship sail so it can sink.

  22. JC says:

    I have to admit – the whole “Season of Tiva” thing was the reason I stopped watching NCIS this year, but it was more just a “straw that broke the camel’s back” thing. I’ve been growing increasingly frustrated with the show for years, starting back in S6 I think. I hated the Reynosa Cartel arc in S7. I really hate the “daddy Gibbs” angle. I hated Tony’s increasingly childish and obnoxious behavior, and then when they did finally start fixing it, it felt like an extremely obvious over-correction, rather than a material progression of he character. Tim, who is one of the few characters besides Ducky that I still like, rarely gets any development or attention. And as far as Tiva goes, I won’t deny there was some real chemistry there in the beginning. But too many years of them bickering in the bullpen like children competing for Daddy’s attention have made me lose all taste for the ship. NCIS LA has done a far better job with Kensi and Deeks. That’s a pairing I can actually root for. Even JAG did a better job with Harm and Mac. They may have waited to the last minute to get them together, but I never doubted how much they cared about each other.

  23. Rossi says:

    It bothers me that almost every comment I’ve read here from anti tivas believe that if you’re a ZIVA fan u are a Tiva fan 2, and that is not true.
    I love Ziva she’s my favorite character, but I don’t like Tony, I think he’s immature, insecure and he does not respect others, like a child.
    I think she deserves someone better than tony, someone like the guy from season 4 I think his name was Roy, he was great.
    The only difference between Ziva fans and Tony’s is that we do not go to websites and write how much we hate Tony, and that the show would be much better if Michael did not return.
    So I do not ship tiva but I do agree with some Tiva fans when they say that some of you are crazy and need to get a life instead of being here fighting over things u cannot change, because let’s be realistic we are talking about the # one show on tv if after ten years they still have rating of more than twenty million viewers, why change what clearly works for them?
    Whether some of you do not like Ziva, Tony or Tiva, most of the viewer’s love the team, and the chemistry between the actors, and that’s why this show is number one, not because of Tony, Ziva or Tiva, is for the team, gibb, tony, ziva, abby, mcgee, palmer, ducky and vance, and you can see clearly in interviews how much they love and respect each other, so stop with the hate and try to enjoy the show, but if u can’t then switch to another channel I’m sure you all can find something that will make your Tuesday nights happier.

    • CA says:

      Anti-tiva fans need to get a life? Really?
      But the fans whose entire life and reason for living, or so it would seem, revolves around a non-existenting pairing between pretend people from a fictional television universe are much more well rounded and live full and complete lives.
      Gotcha! Makes perfect sense to me.

    • JC says:

      I really thought Ziva and Roy had some great chemistry. It was too bad he died. I guess that was the point of the episode, but still.

      • anna says:

        Ziva and Ray would have been great too if they just would have left it off screen to develop slowly….

        • JC says:

          Eh. I wasn’t all that fond of Ray. He came across as rather slimy, which is kind of a trick (and makes me think it was done deliberately) since I liked Enrique Murciano on Without A Trace.

    • Voice of Truth says:

      I understand your frustration, Rossi, but you have it the wrong way around. it isn’t that every Ziva fan is a Tiva fan – it’s that every Tiva fan is a Ziva fan, and that’s where the confusion comes in. The Tiva fandom is almost entirely made of up fans who like Ziva the most and Tony may not even be their second favorite. For the most part, he exists purely to be the other half of Tiva. You can see it in the way they defend everything Ziva does but don’t care if you say anything negative about Tony. Tiva is about Ziva – it always has been, it always will be. I feel sorry for MW but it’s clear he knows it too, judging by his awkward body language every time he has to do a Tiva scene, his well publicized views on not wanting Tiva to happen on the show, and his questioning about whether Ziva, with her poor relationship history and sociopathic tendencies would be the right person for Tony, whose main flaw is that he can be a bit of an idiot.

      • Rossi says:

        I can disagree with you without having a fight?
        In my opinion I don’t think tiva fans love more or less tony, than what they love ziva, I think what happens is that they are too busy trying to defend ziva/cote to put attention to other posts. I’ve been reading some of the posts here and I can tell you that after reading some of the comments made by anna I was so disgusted, one thing is to talk about Ziva as a character, but other is to talk about Cote, Mark and Michael that’s just crazy.
        If she believe that Ziva has problems, after reading these posts I think she have more problems than ziva and what is worse is that Ziva is a character but she is not.

  24. Pinky says:

    As someone that has seen every episode of NCIS at least 3 times, I feel I must ask these questions: why can’t we just watch the show and enjoy it? Why must every plotline and character follow our every whim??
    @Matt – do you ever get a migraine from reading some of these comments???

    • quickdraw59 says:

      Lordy, if he doesn’t get a migraine–I do! (Plus, agree 100% with your other comments)

    • Lillian says:

      I assume he laughs as he counts up his online hits, to which I’m adding. He knows if he posts something about Tiva there’s going to be a lot of comments, mostly fighting. That’s just how divisive Tiva is and how strongly people feel about it and what it is doing or could do to the show.

  25. Rae says:

    Read through about half of the Tony/Ziva comments before realizing the same five or six people were responding quite a bit and saying the same things repeatedly from both sides. Long-time television viewer and big fan of romance-done-right, which it rarely is. My first hardcore ship was Janeway/Chakotay on Star Trek: Voyager and all we ever wanted was an open-ending so we could write fan-fiction to fill in the rest. (Of course, Berman and Braga screwed us there, but that’s ancient history) It’s boggling to me, sometimes, how much shippers are given these days compared to then. That said, I’m still hopeful for Tiva.

    MW contests that “Dark Angel” failed because it got Max and Logan together too soon. I would argue it wasn’t that great a show to begin with, and the dog people were what really turned me off, not the too-soon liplock in “Blah Blah Woof Woof.” Then again, the dragging on of the Booth/Bones saga was the straw that broke the camel’s proverbial back, though I was already half checked-out after the retcon of Zach’s murder/non-murder in the season 2 finale. The writing was on the way out, and after that I was hanging on for the ship. I’ve since realized a ship is no reason to continue watching a show.

    That said, I thought the second half of this season was really well-done writing wise, and I found myself re-invested in a ship I haven’t touched in three or four years. I’m not a hardcore NCIS viewer, watching when I am able, but I became so engrossed in the second half of the season I was in front of the television every Tuesday at 8PM to catch the latest episode. For me, the progression of the terribly named “Tiva” (sorry guys, I am not a big fan of mashed-up ship names) this season is the most they’ve had in a long time, and moved past a lot of the big hurdles that have kept them squarely in the “Friend Zone” if you will. Sure, they’ve flirted with that line, but Rule #12 is imposing, and I think both of them value Gibbs too much and the team to risk jeopardizing it for something that might not last.

    Those are characters, and not real people. Now, I know people feel led on by this season, but I’ve read GG’s comments carefully and he really does his best not to say anything untrue. Sometimes the people writing the article embellish, or one of the actors might say something declarative about the fate of the couple, but I don’t completely understand the backlash his direction as I think he’s done a fair job of balancing it. This is just opinion. I know that people will come back saying they don’t feel that way, and that’s fine. I welcome differing opinions and discourse.

    But, from my perspective as a fan, I think we had the most forward momentum in a season that we’ve had in ages. Tony told her about his mother, and she told him about Talia. He put a comforting hand on her shoulder, and then took hers in the car, their fingers interlaced. They had a hug, and they shared one of the most difficult moments of her life. They’ve been open with one another, and while the cutting remarks are still there, and the borders that separate them remain, they’ve come a long way from where they were when the season began. I’m not holding my breath for the end-all, be-all this coming season, though I think a kiss at season’s end would not be unrealistic. But, funny enough, I’m ok with being patient when it’s built that way. Booth/Bones was not built in with patience. But Janeway/Chakotay was. Grissom/Sara was. And I feel like Tony/Ziva are as well.

    If you are against the pairing or any of the characters, I have no harsh words for you. I like when people have different opinions than I do. It reminds me that we’re all unique and don’t have to be homogenized. For me, I’m pretty satisfied with where Season 10 left Ziva and Tony, and I’m glad to finally see some forward momentum rather than years of stalling. (Again… just my opinion)

    • Gina says:

      @ Rae
      I agree with you, this season has had so many beautiful moments between them, such as the opera, tony talking about his mother, all the moments in berlin and double blind, and of course you cannot forget Shiva and “you’re not alone”.
      So for me this year was the year of tiva, I’m OK with them been best friends maybe because I married my best friend, so Glasberg thanks for fixing the mess that Brennan did during season 6.

      • Gabi says:

        @Gina
        I agree with you !

      • anna says:

        GG has fixed nothing from S6….sorry…all he’s done is shove it under a rug and now he hopes that the fans will forget about the assault in Israel….

        • 4luvofncis says:

          There isn’t a rug. Everything was put out into the open. Fans have not forgotten, most of us have just moved on, & so has Tony. If you’re still hung up on the “assault” (if you’re referring to when Ziva pushed Tony to the ground), then IMO you truly didn’t understand it, or when she asked for forgiveness.

          • BB123 says:

            That was 4 years ago, People change, forgive, forget, grow up in 4 years. The move on to something else. The anti-tivas who bring up this argument need to do the same.

    • 4luvofncis says:

      Thank you, Rae, for having an intelligent, neutral, & respectful discussion. I agree that the Tony/Ziva dynamic has been very clever & patient, and that they do both care about their respective relationships w/Gibbs so as to tread cautiously. This has nothing do with them being partners or really any concrete “rules.” It has to do with their respect for Gibbs. However, I think Gibbs is seeing it, and has seen things develop between them over time, & will eventually have to come to realize that they do love each other, & that they are in love with each other, if he doesn’t already. And I think he’s trying to figure what to do with that. As I’m sure he is quite conflicted as well. They are his “kids” and his best agents (along w/McGee). And he is very protective of them. I too feel like the smashed up couple name has created more of a mess, with the media catalyzing the debate & the show’s teasing as well. I know that GG has been careful about what he says, but I still think he intentionally (along with MW) says things to get people on the hook, only to not meet the expectation he subtly puts out there. :) But I admit I am biased & am craving the moment when all the walls come down & they get to write a new chapter.

  26. KS1E says:

    Here’s the issue…many fans would love to see Tony & Ziva get together (finally), but many love the Chemistry and dynamics of the “team” more. So, maybe when NCIS has there absolute finale Finale Gary will put Tony and Ziva, Tim and Abby together permanently…and of course Gibbs can fade off into the sunset (not like Kate and Jenny)

  27. L. Burke says:

    I’m happily putting my vote in NOT getting Tony and Ziva together romantically. I like them as just friends and partners that give each other a hard time. Making them anything other than that would be a disaster in the making with Tony’s mommy issues and Ziva’s capital D Daddy issues. I’m tried of the dead horse that is Mexico and Mossad too. I cheered when they killed Eli hoping they would finally bury that long dead horse. I’d love to see them mix it up a little. Maybe have Tony and Abby work a case together. Maybe have them work the case and clear up the back story about what happed to Abby’s dad? How about we FINALLY get the back story about how Tony and Tobias knew each other before Tony joined NCIS? It either had to be the Baltimore Crime Family case or it was the case that had Tony leaving Philly neither of which Tony has ever talked about. All we do know is Tony got a nice loathing of the FBI and Tobias was trying to recruit him but Gibbs snatched him up first. How about instead of Gibbs having all the military contacts exploring some friendships Tim has made as a Navy brat?

    • JC says:

      I like your ideas. :)

      • L. Burke says:

        Thank you. It would just be so nice to have the show actually explore other characters back stories besides Ziva and Gibbs for change. Tony gets an episode like “You better watch out” every once in a while. And I can appreciate the slow build the writers have going there. Having a few addicts in my family I applaud the slow real life take on reconciliation process they got going there between Tony and his Dad. It should be interesting if they do go the hinted molestation with his mother (Scenes in Frame Up). It sure would make for some very interesting scenes for MW and RW to sink their teeth in to. Not to mention REALLY pretty much ties up Tony’s issues with woman in a nice little bow. I really want them to explore what happened with Abby’s dad and how he died too. They’ve always hinted there was a lot more about how Abby’s father died than Abby knew. Possibly even it was a hit.

  28. 4luvofncis says:

    Matt, I’m really curious to know what you think about this theory as the “filling in the blanks:” do you remember in “Broken Arrow,” they left the fate of the nuclear bomb hanging? And that Bayar was involved in that? Then in “Pyramid” when Ray talked about Kort being involved in embezzlement (I get the feeling Kort was also involved in Bayar taking over La Gronquille’s arms deals as well); and in “Devil’s Triangle,” Fornell’s investigation into private contractor’s was left hanging, and finally in “Need to Know,” the foreshadowing of Gibbs’ conversation w/Bayar; all of this in addition to the severed head being radioactive, the threat being “at home,” I wonder if this all ties together. The nuclear bomb, Bayar, weapons trade, the CIA, Kort, private contractor’s, & Fornell’s investigation? :)

  29. KyNCISFan says:

    Thank you for the NCIS scoops! I am a long-time fan of the show and of Tiva. I’ll admit I was a bit disappointed that they weren’t further along by the end of the season particularly after all of the hype with the spoilers provided at the beginning of the season. I have not given up on the coupling though. I do think it is important for them to be established as ‘friends’ first since that is the basis for a good relationship – so I am not too upset by that comment. I do hope they continue to move them forward in a positive way next season. I am past the point where I will watch them with other love interests & I no longer watch those episodes (skipped the end of season 8 due to lack of interest). I am cautiously looking forward to next season.

    • 4luvofncis says:

      Agreed. Though I like the episodes with other love interests (even as ridiculous & transparently wrong they are) because it plays on that tension and the obvious jealousy that both have regarding said love interests.

  30. elana says:

    Some of the creepy stalker messages here are really disturbing. Particularly the ‘their my babies and I hurt when they are hurt’ type.

    • BB123 says:

      I agree with as a Tiva fan (well not-so-much anymore, I just want it to end because the back and forth is tiring. I will rather have them together. But if TPTB decide that they’re just friends, them It’d be fine by me because FINALLY that’s over, and we can have another story. Again, I would rather have the story of them together (and no more than passing comments or 20 second scene by episode and 1 episode per season dedicated to that). But I would also enjoy seeing them with other people, if it’s well-written. But the “will-they won’t they” had just run its course now. Time to put an end to it.

      • L. Burke says:

        I completely agree about just putting an end to it. Though I more side with Tony and Ziva staying good friends and partners and going out and finding two other people away from the job that makes them happy. 

    • L. Burke says:

      Seconded. I wish fans would simply comment and debate on the characters and leave the actors out of it. TV is fantasy and RL is real life.

  31. kajar says:

    Wow. The whole comment section of this article is really sad. Fandom wars leave me cold. Nobody wins and it brings out the absolute worst in people, with the name calling and overwhelming negativity. I see a lot of projecting going on and I’m certain there are more than a few commentators here that could benefit from therapy (I’m quite serious; it’s more than disconcerting). And I certainly hope that none of the people involved with NCIS are actually reading any of this tripe because it’s terribly insulting to them as professionals and as people. I’m actually sorry I even took the time to even comment, but there it is.

  32. tw111 says:

    Just bring back E.J. Barrett already… she and Tony are kindred spirits with chemistry, and SJM is a talented yet under-used actress who plays a great ‘ hot lady cop’.

    • SAM says:

      While I will agree that she is a very fine actress, I doubt that the character of EJ will ever be seen again on the show.

  33. Bob Law says:

    So out of 600 comments, about 500 are 4 people using multiple names to try to make themselves seem right… sad. Why can’t you 4 just start your own website to argue amongst yourselves, and quit clogging TV Line with your idiotic rants.

  34. Andrea says:

    I dislike the assumption made by some that those who dislike Tony and Ziva are racist because they do not like them. That does not apply to me.

    I dislike the assumption that those who dislike Tony and Ziva are a small number of people posting under multiple names. I am one person posting under one name.

    I dislike the assumption that people who dislike Tony and Ziva are unable to be “fair” or “balanced.” Actually, that’s my main problem with the character of Ziva—that the writing is unbalanced and everything is thrown at Ziva so that viewers feel sorry for her instead of regarding her as an adult who is capable of dealing with her mistakes.

    Case in point: When Ziva wanted to become an agent, Vance didn’t even ask about Rivkin. Ziva worked for a federal agency of a foreign government. Even though Israel is an ally, Vance would have been entirely within his right to question who Ziva might be loyal to if she had to choose. The conversation wasn’t even asked because the writers made sure that Ziva had been tortured.

    Secondly, why was it necessary to change the Ari story so that Ziva was now ordered to get close to Gibbs? Why not just leave it as it was (which wasn’t terrific to begin with because Ziva saved the day. However, at the time she was new, so I figured that was done to really get her started as a character.) Now though, we have Ziva saves the day AND Eli and Ziva managed to “play” Jenny, Gibbs, and Vance.

    Thirdly, as an example, I believe that Ziva would have shown great strength if she would have been gracious and humble enough to allow herself to be called Probie instead of being so petulant about it. Tim endured it for years and he is probably as smart as Ziva (and even smarter than her if we’re discussing technology.) Tim allowed it from Tony, Gibbs allowed it from Franks until the day Franks died, yet Ziva found it beneath her. There is a diffference between ‘strong” and “skilled.” I’d readily call Ziva a skilled fighter, but a strong woman? No. In my opinion, Ziva is an entitled woman who is made to look strong by placing her in situations where she is made to somehow not be responsible for whatever befalls her.

    This is not a full accounting of my issues with Ziva. Just examples of my points.

    Lastly, I hold no ill will toward Cote. She seems like a perfectly pleasant person, and I genuinely hope I like the next character she plays far more than Ziva David.

  35. John says:

    It’s probably a good idea to keep a very open mind about what seems to be going on with this show. (NCIS)

    Because all of a sudden someone’s mildly amusing germaphobic love interest can be revealed as a traitorous murderess (though forced into that situation through family) and wind up dead at Gibb’s hand with hardly a blink.

    Just ask Jimmy.

    • tw111 says:

      Think you have Agent Lee mixed up with another woman, who accompanied Tony to Iraq where her brother had been injured.

      • John says:

        No, Lee was the person Gibbs shot while she was being held by her accomplice. Nothing to do with Iraq or Tony. Turned out Lee had murdered a fellow agent, who got the blame for events at the time, in a plot forced on her by the people who held her sister, IIRC. There was a final confrontation on a bus where Lee was being used as a human shield and Gibbs needed to stop her clot, Gibbs and Lee made eye contact and then Gibbs shot through her to take down the bad guy, killing Lee in the process. Her willing sacrifice tying in with her not having been a willing conspirator.

        Stuck with me because I’d always thought there should have been another way to resolve the standoff and Gibbs took the shot too fast, but there it was.

        • John says:

          Here’s a summary of the events, she was a mole and killed AgentBrent Langer to deflect suspicion of her guilt.

          http://ncis.wikia.com/wiki/Michelle_Lee

        • tw111 says:

          Like I said: Lee and the germaphobe ( who went on the Iraq trip) are two completely different agents/ persons.

          • John says:

            Well as I recall, unlike with Nikki, the cleanliness quirk was a minor thing with Lee. I thought you were questioning Lee being a traitorous murderer.

            On an unrelated note given how ripped Jimmy Palmer has been revealed to be Michelle Lee’s proclivity for jumping him (and just being missed being dicovered by Ducky) starts to make a lot of sense. Pauley tweeted about shirtless Palmer with appreciation this past year and as her fiancé is a Royall Marine I expect she’s a good judge of ripped. :)

  36. John says:

    Well I simply recall Lee having a bit of a germ issue, hence “mildly”. Could be I’m mistaken. But the actual point, that even a longstanding character can have unrealized layers that lead in very unexpected direction does remain.

  37. WCfan says:

    White Collar news makes me happy. Looking forward to Neal’s new ladylove. Sara wasn’t bad either…but Neal is still searching and this one could be it…

  38. lizzy90 says:

    Late to the party? I hope not :)
    I’ve a wish for NCIS S11: the end of tiva and any other romance among the many characters.
    tiva is a monster that is eating the show and the fandom alive. Please stop!

  39. lizzy90 says:

    Sorry, I meant ‘main characters’ and not ‘many characters’.
    Stupid autocorrect! *sigh*

  40. anna says:

    OMG!!!!! I’d really love to see EION BAILEY a little more on tv and I’d LOVE to see him on CA again… the chemistry with PIPER was great IMO ;) THANK YOU MATT FOR THIS AWESOME PIECE OF NEWS!!!! XDDD

  41. kendall says:

    Matt thank you for the NCIS scoops.

    I love NCIS and Tiva this season was the best, I’m dying for season 11.

  42. Donna says:

    Is it me or is something wrong with the scenario? Why should Sara’s return depend on whether or not the fans miss her? The story should miss her or need her. And, frankly her storyline is over. She has been brought back too many times because of her fanbase from some other show and each return has been more annoying than the previous. No reason why she should be back from London…Hope this exit is final.

  43. Kate says:

    I think just by reading through those comments and seeing how the “Ziva” fans and the “Tony” fans interact is reason enough for them never to get together. We (characters and fans) are on completely different wavelengths. Tony fans are “mean” while Ziva fans have to be handled with kid gloves not to upset them (all the while being the ones to hit back personally with the nasty and hurtful comments).

    • 4luvofncis says:

      And what about the fans of both Tony & Ziva? Do we have split personalities? :)

      • Voice of Truth says:

        I’ve honestly never come across a Tiva fan who liked Tony more than they like Ziva so it’s not really an issue.

        • SAM says:

          Look a little harder. They’re out there.

          • Voice of Truth says:

            No, SAM. You SAY you like Tony as much, but your posts betray the pretty poor view you have of him. Your entire perception of Tiva is from Ziva’s pov. As your other post shows, you don’t really understand Tony at all. If you did, if you liked him even half as much as you like Ziva, you wouldn’t want him with her.

        • 4luvofncis says:

          Well since you haven’t personally it must mean it’s a universal truth and therefore deemed a universal nonissue. Well, prepare to be shocked because I actually like them equally. Do I feel the need to defend the character of Ziva more than Tony’s? Yes, of course, when that character is attacked more frequently & people spout inaccurate information, it stands to reason.

          • Voice of Truth says:

            And yet I’ve not seen you actually say anything that sounds as if you have the remotest understanding of Tony’s character except insofar as how he exists in relation to Ziva.

          • 4luvofncis says:

            My responses about Ziva have been in defense of her character. As for Tony I have voiced my agreement about others’ posts in his defense that stood apart from Ziva. Others have represented my understanding of Tony quite well. Additionally I don’t feel the need to explain myself further nor prove my complete understanding of both characters, individually and as a couple.

    • Voice of Truth says:

      LOL Kate! I think that probably shows people identifying with the traits of their favorite characters! I have noticed how much Ziva fans feel they are persecuted and victimized while they throw out vile accusations towards everyone who doesn’t agree with them.

      But yes – I actually think this is the reason why Tony and Ziva wouldn’t work. I think they are such totally different personalities with such totally different world views, and it would be a disastrous pairing. I think it’s also a pairing that would work for Ziva, giving her someone to boss around and lord over and generally maltreat to her heart’s content, but that wouldn’t be a picnic for Tony, who’d be forever tip-toeing his way around her capricious moods. She’s already assaulted him once (when he couldn’t defend himself or break his fall, because he had a broken arm no less!) – I don’t doubt it’d happen again if they were in a relationship. The drama of her own emotions will always, in her mind and that of her fans, justify any of her actions.

      • SAM says:

        Yes, it’s true that Tony and Ziva are different in many ways. It’s also true that they are alike in more than few too. They both have had significant issues with their fathers growing up. Both lost their mothers when young — Tony when he was ten, Ziva most likely when she was in her early teens, certainly before she graduated high school. Both view the team as their second family, to which they would seem to be closer to than their own. As they have spent time together over the years and have gotten closer, some of the opposing views that they had have changed, becoming a bit more in tune with the other.

        As for her bossing Tony around, I guess if I wanted to focus in on nothing but his negatives, I could say that she would have nothing to look forward to but his making fun of her malapropisms and leering at other women as they went walking by. I could, but I don’t want to, and so I don’t. I take his bad points along with his good points and lo and behold, we have the fascinating person that is Tony DiNozzo. Likewise with Ziva. Likewise with Gibbs. Likewise with all of them.

        Every single one of the characters on this show have serious flaws, flaws which have seriously affected how they live their lives. For the most part, these flaws have only affected their personal lives, but every so often they have affected their professional lives. All of them. Which is what DPB intended when he created them and this show, ten years ago. He knew that it would make for interesting and compelling TV viewing, watching these people overcome obstacles, quite often themselves and each other, while in the process of solving crimes.

        Every single one of them has their negative points, but quite often it seems as though others act and behave as though Ziva is the only one who has them, and that hers outweigh all that the others have. That strikes many of us as patently unfair. I don’t consider myself as persecuted or victimized, nor do most of the people I know who like Ziva. We simply strive for a little balance when we see some focusing in on her negatives, making it sound and seem as though she and she alone is this imperfect being in the NCIS world of perfection.

        Of all of the sins that some love to constantly bring up, none can match the takedown from “Aliyah”. Those who constantly bring this up remind me of some poor soul adrift in a raging ocean, clinging to some rotten piece of flotsam for dear life. They would love to not be in it, and they would love to cling to something a little bit better, certainly more solid and reassuring, but in a raging ocean, you hold onto what can best keep you afloat, and you hold onto it with a deathgrip that not even a crowbar could loosen.

        Time and again, many of us have offered explanations — not excuses, explanations — for what happened. Those of you who constantly refer back to it refuse to hear anything of the sort, for the sole reason that you believe that it is the best example of “Mean, Nasty, Ole Ziva”, beating up on a poor, defenseless Tony. We’ll skip over the fact that Tony initiated the confrontation with the intention of getting her to explode as a way of getting over her grief and her anger. While most likely not expecting that she would react quite the way she did, I think he was fully prepared for her to get physical and was okay with it. I don’t believe he was ever in fear of anything happening that would cost him his life. If he had been worried about that, I have enough faith and confidence in Tony that he would be smart enough to take steps in advance to protect both himself and Ziva from such a thing happening. Be that as it may, the simple fact of the matter is that he forgave her for it, long before she asked for his forgiveness in “Reunion”. You may argue that she wasn’t sincere, that she didn’t want to do it, whatever….the fact remains that she did, and TPTB for the show would assert that she did. You may disagree and that’s fine, but as they are in charge, what they say goes. And whether you like it or not, Tony did forgive her. You may not like that, you may wonder why. I don’t; it has been shown time and time again what a forgiving person Tony is. I think that it may be his best trait, the one that makes him the good person that he really is, deep down inside, past the playboy, smartass façade. He has displayed it on more than a few occasions, and not all of them involving Ziva. There are the numerous times that Kate put him down, made fun of fratboy behavior, his skirt chasing, even his skills and abilities as an agent. But in the end, he forgave her. Naming a fish after her seems in one respect a weird way to honor her, but when you stop and think about it, it’s a Tony way, that’s for sure. And then there’s Wendy, the woman who left him at the altar, with nary a word of warning or explanation. It may not have hurt physically, but emotionally it was ten times more crippling and damaging. Only Tony Sr. has contributed more to Tony Jr.’s phobia towards commitment. Most men would find it difficult, if not impossible to forgive a woman for doing that to them. And yet, Tony did forgive her.

        Perhaps the woman Tony had the most difficulty forgiving was the one who really did hurt him the most, not by hitting him, or punching him, or even verbally abusing him, but by abandoning him and leaving him for dead. Yes, EJ. Barrett. The person many — which is not to say all — who are constantly criticizing Ziva for her actions in “Aliyah” are quick to say was a perfect match for Tony, a conclusion he no longer shared after what happened in “The Nature Of The Beast”. Based on his reaction in “Housekeeping”, I think it’s safe to say that what she did was far more hurtful to him than anything you think that Ziva has ever done to him, perhaps even greater than what Wendy did by leaving him at the altar. And yet, by the time the episode had ended, Tony was even able to forgive EJ for what she had done. Perhaps with reluctance, but by the end with genuine feeling. You have to admire and respect a man who, by example, shows how to apply a true Biblical principle — that of forgiving others of their trespasses in faith that God will forgive us ours.

        Many of you have no problem forgiving Kate, Wendy or EJ, but cannot bring yourselves to forgive Ziva. Long ago I came to the conclusion that the reason was that it was not due to what Ziva had done — the three women mentioned here did things that were, in their way, as bad if not worse — but that it was because Ziva was the one who did them — that it was strictly personal. Whatever. All of you claim to be big fans of Tony. I have no doubt that you are. I would only ask that you try to follow his example of forgiveness. It’s one we could all try to follow and employ more often in all aspects of our lives.

        • Gabi says:

          I love that you know exactly what you’re talking about and I love the way you analyzed this. I agree 110% with everything you just said. I think you’re awesome :)

          • SAM says:

            Thank you. Your kind words are appreciated. I’m sure that others will disagree with you, but that’s okay too.

          • Gabi says:

            You are more than welcome. The arguments that some people put up on here made me really angry and I’m just glad that you and voice of reason know exactly w.hat you’re talking about and have a good forgiving heart :))

        • 4luvofncis says:

          All very good points, SAM. I will never wrap my head around the animosity towards Ziva, or for any of the main characters for that matter. Ziva’s surface issues towards Tony are about her working through her own stuff, and in conflict with how to deal with her feelings for Tony. I’m not excusing it, nor am I saying it was all right. But at the heart of it, in view of their TOTAL history, she’s been the most protective, the most loyal, the most concerned, and the most jealous of anyone in Tony’s life.

          • Gabi says:

            Yup. Yup. Yup

          • Voice of Truth says:

            Really, 4luvofncis? She’s been more protective and loyal and concerned about Tony than GIBBS has? I don’t think so! She repeatedly puts him down, not just to his face but, far worse, to other people. She finds him childish and annoying. I’ll give you the ‘jealous’ part – her jealousy has bordered on the stalkerish at times.

            And why must Tony be on the receiving end of Ziva working through her stuff? As usual, it’s all about her. What on earth does TONY get from this relationship apart from a selfish, self-obsessed, spoiled woman with anger management issues, who puts her own emotions and desires above everything and everyone else?

          • 4luvofncis says:

            Yep, really. I wouldn’t say repeatedly. Most of the time this is her trying to get under his skin, much like he does with her. And sometime she’s telling him the truth. He does act like a child SOMEtimes. Meaning he does or doesn’t do things that any other mature grown up would. That doesn’t mean she isn’t childish at times. Season 4, concerned, hurt about him keeping secrets, or jealous of his other love interest; Season 5, wondering about her feelings for him, but also putting up defense mechanisms, Season 6: showing more protection, conflicted about her feelings for him while having a fling w/someone else; Season 7: apologetic, more grateful, more loving, more open, more patient. Season 8: being more flirty, being playful, more of a partner, more accountable. Season 9: even more open, more vulnerable, recognizing Tony’s good qualities; Season 10: deeper connection, appreciating Tony more, caring about his relationship w/his father (always the case), letting him be there for her, expressing her feelings for him (nonverbally).

            as far as Tony being the one to receive all of her stuff? because she cares about him the most/he gets her more than anyone (even Gibbs)/she’s scared of losing him more than anyone else. she wants something terribly (“I want something permanent. Something that can’t be taken away. Is that too much to ask?”), but is scared to death of losing it. (“You should keep your distance, Ducky. The ones who get to close, always end up dead.”) Who in your life gets to deal with most of your stuff?

            Anyway. Clearly we understand the character differently. I would challenge you to look a little deeper beyond the surface behavior (that holds true for anyone).

        • Voice of Truth says:

          I think you live on a different planet, SAM. Ziva tried to get him thrown off the team – Tony’s life has been Team Gibbs and she wanted him gone. I suspect he doesn’t know about that particular betrayal. If he’s forgiven her for any of her transgressions against him it’s because the writers have warped his character out of all recognition in order to accommodate hers.

          Gibbs also lost his mom in his adolescence and has a troubled relationship with his father. Definitely grounds for a relationship with Tony then.

          As for your analysis of Tony’s flaws – the fact you think those ARE his flaws shows how little you understand the character. Tony wears a mask – Ziva fans, like Ziva herself, see only the class clown and don’t particularly care to dig at what’s underneath. As for the ‘skirt chasing’ – we’re told about it a lot but don’t see it much. This is the same person who didn’t have sex for two years after he was so cut up about losing Jeanne. Remember how when he was with Jeanne he never looked at other women? She even commented on it at one point. If he loved Ziva, as he undoubtedly loved Jeanne, why would you foresee him ‘leering’ at other women? I don’t think the Ziva fans have ever understood that Tony is not the mask he wears – hardly surprising as the show forgets it often enough, although in the early years it had a very good handle on this facet of Tony. The fact you fail to understand Tony remotely is why Tony fans have such a problem with Tiva. He’s only what you want him to be for HER – as he only exists to be with her in the eyes of the Tiva fans, that’s hardly surprising.

          And let’s compare flaws, shall we? Tony can be juvenile and irritating. He sometimes says the wrong thing, and he jokes when he should be serious. He vacillates about his big life choices and he mopes about them instead of doing something about them. But those are sins of style rather than substance. He’s always been there for his team, and taken repeated hits for them. When did Tony ever betray his team? When did he chase after his own vigilante justice for the sake of his own rampantly over-dramatized emotions? When did he attack an injured team member and leave them on the floor? When did he hold a gun to their chest while they were helpless to defend themselves? Apparently he sleeps around, but we’ve never seen him actually use people for sex the way Ziva did with Adam and the guy from Recoil. I don’t have a problem with that because I think it’s fine for both women and men to have a healthy sexual appetite, but you’re the ones bandying Tony’s sex life around like he’s sleeping with a different woman every night when the actual evidence on the show is quite different, and you conveniently forget your princess has been shown to actually use men for sex when it suits her. If they were in a relationship should Tony be worried about her sleeping with random men whenever he’s out of town because she feels a bit lonely? If you want to point the finger at his supposed sexual ‘flaws’ then you have to point it at her, too.

          Flawed is one thing, but Ziva is just a plain nasty piece of work. Only in your Harlequin romance view of Tiva is it possible to see her as a poor, damaged, tragic, sweet little girl-next-door who just wants to fall in love with the handsome school jock and settle down and have babies. Totally ignoring the fact that a) she isn’t and b) that’s not him, either.

          • Gabi says:

            Uhhhm. Did you miss the entire “forgiving” part? About how tony is amazingly forgiving and we should be the same? Just move past it PLEASE, since they obviously have.

          • SAM says:

            As I have watched the show since the beginning, I think I have a pretty good read on the character of Tony. As good as some, maybe not as good as others.

            You bring up Jeanne — you know, that started off as an assignment. I would say it was an assignment that he handled pretty well. At least initially. Which means that he was having to do things that would insure that she wouldn’t get suspicious. Which means act a certain way that will attract her, keep her interest. Get her to fall in love with him. He succeeded. Not surprising. One of the reasons why Jenny chose him for this assignment was because he’s good at undercover work. Another reason why she chose him was because he was a ladies man. Not because he acted like one, but because, at that time, he was one. Yes, I think he talked a good game more than he played the game, but he did play the game. Many years ago, my old high school basketball team had a 6’10” center. We went against a pretty good team, but we won and our center had a pretty good game. 17 points, 11 rebounds. The opposing team’s coach complained about how his players were intimidated by our center, which he couldn’t understand — he said our center was only acting intimidating. Well, the problem with that is if his players were buying the act, that makes him intimidating, at least to them. Tony may ACT like a ladies man, but if the rest of the world, and especially the ladies, buy the act, then guess what? He’s a ladies man. Truthfully, that’s the secret behind every good ladies man — if you believe your act, they will too. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t more to him than that — of course there is; we have seen that time and time again over the years. Contrary to what you say, Ziva has seen that too, and has commented on it, to him and to others. They have complemented each other and gotten digs in at each other. It’s what they do.

            Getting back to Jeanne, somewhere along the way the way, his assignment became real to him. Another flaw — he has a habit of getting too involved with the assignment or the case (Rule 10). He admits that to Gibbs in “Obsession”, and Gibbs tells him that he has problems with that rule too. Personally, I don’t see it as nearly as big a flaw as they both might — I rather think that’s why they are both so good at their jobs. In the case of Jeanne, though, it was a big mistake, because as it was pointed out to him (by Ziva, but sorry, that doesn’t automatically make the observation invalid), there was simply no good way that whole deal was going to end. Yep, he never looked at another woman while he was with her. Now, I could say it was because he was trying to stay as close to the made up persona of Tony DiNarrdo as he could, but that would deny the obvious fact that he did fall for her. Hard. But he did give her up. She gave him the chance to choose between her and his career, and he chose his career. Because, in the end, she had fallen in love with a man who didn’t exist, an undercover role. A character who had many similar traits that Tony DiNozzo has, but who, in the end, was a character, nevertheless. Doesn’t mean that Tony didn’t develop real feelings of love for her, just means that there was no way that it was ever going to work out. Because — and here’s the sad truth of it — the reality is that Jeanne would never had allowed herself to fall for Tony if she had known he was a federal agent — he would have reminded her too much of her previous boyfriend, who DID cheat on her. Doesn’t mean that Tony would have, by any stretch of the imagination. But as they were both so much alike, she more than likely would have automatically thought that he would do the same thing. You would say that she would be wrong, that he wouldn’t do such a thing. I would agree. I doubt that Jeanne would agree with us.

            As for the rest of your post — my guess is that Tony is very much aware that Ziva wanted him gone. He’s a bright guy, he can put two and two together, without anybody giving him any help whatsoever. Your complaints about the writers are interesting, in that Tony has always been a forgiving person. Like I said, he forgave Kate. He forgave Wendy. He forgave EJ. He forgave Jeanne accusing him of murdering her father in “Internal Affairs.” That’s been one of the constants of the character for the entire length of the series. So I don’t see them warping him one bit there, but rather being very true to one of the core facets of the character.

            As for my not understanding him because I think those flaws of his are real — they are real to the extent that if he truly believes they are the real him. Does he? Sometimes I think he does, when he really gets down on himself. Most of the time, most likely not. I agree with you that he wears a mask — sorry that I didn’t make that clear for you — but sometimes when you wear a mask, and it’s a really good one, you can’t be surprised if others have a difficult time seeing the real face beneath it. He’s gotten very good at wearing that mask. Maybe too good. That’s a problem, or if you will, a flaw. Probably THE big flaw. That, and a tendency to sometimes hesitate in trusting his own gut.

            As for comparing flaws, honestly, that’s something that I don’t sit around, wasting my time doing. They are both flawed people, something that’s been shown time and time again. I don’t think that Ziva is perfect and I never said she was. What you pointed out about Ziva regarding Adam and Michael from “Recoil” is true — she has a habit of indulging in self destructive behavior when facing extreme depression. She should get help for it, just as Tony should get help for his problems , just as Gibbs should get help for his problems, just as McGee should get help for his problems, just as they ALL should get help for their problems. But just as the rest are all much more than their flaws and problems, so too, is Ziva.

            You question her loyalty, but Abby points out in “Double Blind” that she is loyal to a fault. You complain about her seeking vigilante justice, but the simple truth of the matter is she wanted to bring Bodnar in alive; if she had wanted to kill him, she would have simply shot him when she had the chance and then make it look like an accident. You wonder about whether or not Ziva would sleep with strange men if she were feeling lonely with Tony being out of town. Since I believe that both would end up being happy and content in a relationship with one another, I doubt that she would do such a thing. Here’s an idea: let’s put them together in a relationship with one another and find out. Let’s watch it play out and see what happens.

            Again, if you thought that I believed that Tony was nothing more than a “high school jock”, sorry you got that impression. He most certainly far more than that. I’m also sorry that you believe that Ziva is nothing more than a “nasty piece of work”. You’re entitled to your opinion and certainly free to express it. That doesn’t mean that it’s universally held; the facts and the record show otherwise. Yours is a minority opinion. Especially with those who created and write her; they view her as a heroine. And as they are in charge, that’s the majority opinion, the correct opinion. Why, I would go so far as to say it is canon.

          • 4luvofncis says:

            “When did Tony ever betray his team?” When did Ziva?? )h you mean when she being pulled into two different directions, being used by someone on the other team she was on, being set up by her father to prove her loyalty, when she was given information about a Mossad operation that she wasn’t required to share w/NCIS. “When did he chase after his own vigilante justice for the sake of his own rampantly over-dramatized emotions?” Well, when did Tony’s emotions rule him? Well, when he lead an off the books operation to clear Ziva’s name. When he broke protocol & risked his career & his life for Ziva going to talk to her to protect her, then attempting to arrest Rivkin. When he no longer cared about life & went on a vengeance mission. When Ziva went missing & he went after Kort & physically assaulted him. When he was obsessed w/a woman & crossed the line w/her “boyfriend.” “When did he attack an injured team member and leave them on the floor? When did he hold a gun to their chest while they were helpless to defend themselves?” Attack is a pretty strong word. Shoved to the ground? Yes, this is more accurate. Yep, Ziva did this. She was out of line. She was wrong. But he wasn’t just her team member, & this was personal. Just like it was for him. He showed her the truth & she took her anger out on him. Did she accept that she was wrong? Yes. Did she want to make things right? Yes. Did she say she was wrong? Yes. Were things made right? YES. Can you accept that things were made right between them? If not, you are doing Tony’s character & the show in general, a disservice.

        • die Stimme der Vernunft says:

          Wow, that is a whole lot of retconning. Did you make this all up yourself or did you have help?

          Just one point, since life is too short to cover all of your issues point by point.

          EJ was running for her life when she left Tony, who she thought was dead and she obviously did not have time to check. He had just taken a bullet to the chest and was out for the count. How do you suppose the police were called? Maybe EJ called once she got clear. She was definitely over her head.

          On the other hand, Ziva attacked him. I don’t care if it was 4 years ago or 4 minutes ago, that is not the basis for establishing a relationship. Considering her ungrateful behavior since he orchestrated the op which ultimately rescued her, she has proven herself to be a nasty piece of work he would do well to avoid at all costs both professionally, since he can’t even count on her for backup, and personally, since she treats him like a rented mule.

          • Gabi says:

            Ok. We’ve pretty much gone through all of these points. We don’t need anyone else’s rudeness. Nobody has been rude to you on here so just please stop.

          • Lillian says:

            Oh for pete’s sake, Gabi, stop whining and just stop reading. Both sides are passionate and both are rude at times. You were rude *and* foul-mouthed. If you can’t take heated discussions then don’t read the board.

          • Gabi says:

            Alright, that’s how it’s gonna be? Just get a life and stop getting heated over a tv show. So rude and immature. I don’t understand how people can get so worked up because people don’t agree with them about this.

          • Lillian says:

            You’re the one getting worked up, Gabi. Stop telling people how to respond. Better yet, stop reading, you’ll feel much better.

          • Gabi says:

            Hahahahahahaha this is funny. I’m not worked up, trust me, you would know when I’m worked up. You’re not the only person that’s dissed ziva/tiva. And I’m also not the only person that loves them.. seems to be a lot more of us than you so I’m not too worried about you

          • Lillian says:

            You can’t count the responses on a message board as a sign of superior numbers, you should know that by now. We don’t matter. Nielsen families matter, and they’re not as “involved” as message board participants are.

          • Gabi says:

            Oh it’s not just on this website. There’s a lot mote places like tumblr, fb, twitter and so many more blogs.

          • Lillian says:

            Same argument applies, and if you notice, the same names pop up over and over. Plus, a huge number are international and they don’t count in ratings so they don’t count.

          • 4luvofncis says:

            Like I said to VoT, if you can’t accept that things were made right between them, you are doing Tony’s character, the show, and yourself a disservice. And it’s simply not accurate. Since season 7 she has been there to be back him up, both personally and professionally. Give me a time when she wasn’t. And please explain how she treats him like a rented mule. I really would like to see examples of this, AFTER season 7. Maybe the basis for continuing in a relationship (as one had already been established) is making mistakes, admitting you’re wrong, asking for forgiveness, being forgiven, and moving on. It strengthens a relationship. And it has proven to do so. As for EJ, that is the demonstration of someone looking out for #1. She said herself, she assumed he was dead. She didn’t even check. She just took off. No, she didn’t call 911. She never tried to contact him or anyone else at NCIS. When has Ziva demonstrated this? Here are examples of the opposite: Cloak. Dead Air. Til Death Do Us Part. Canary. Damned if You Do.

          • die Stimme der Vernunft says:

            You are watching the same show, right? Ziva (& McGee) turned off the radio on Tony in Dead Air, which you are using as proof Ziva has had his back???

            How about not? He was looking for a terrorist who had already killed 3 people in cold blood and she turned the radio off. No backup! Pretty piss poor example of Ziva’s watching out for Tony. LOLOLOL!!!!!

            I don’t care about the tackle. That was simply overkill for the tivas to have their squee moment to whine about not being enough yet again. Talk about shippers with no imagination and too many entitlement issues! Any other ship is happy with a little subtext or even a scene with their two favorites together for a few seconds/the tivas want XXX humping like bunnies at midnight with Tony put firmly in his place or complain about it.

          • Gabi says:

            Wow seriously? Who said we want Tony and Ziva humping and XXX? Noooo. We want Tony and Ziva to be together and happy, that’s all. Do you watch castle? Beckett and Castle are in a relationship but it’s not the major plot of the show. It’s in the background and they haven’t stopped being the awesome team that they were before being in a relationship. That’s what we want. Their romantic relationship in the background. That’s all we ask of GG.

          • 4luvofncis says:

            Oh, you mean when he was getting voice samples to take back to the lab by pretending he wanted to buy a house in the neighborhood? And when they didn’t need to listen to every conversation that he had, and were just waiting for him to get back? Um, no he wasn’t actively looking for a terrorist at the time, & wasn’t in any danger.

            So, you are completely disregarding the fact that Tony was too close to the bomb and Ziva saved him? Which is exactly what having someone’s back looks like? Okay, sure. That’s your prerogative. But don’t say or say it if you want, it makes no difference, that Ziva doesn’t have Tony’s back. It’s simply not accurate.

          • die Stimme der Vernunft says:

            Yeah, when he was collecting voice prints to find the guy who had just blown away 3 people in cold blood and they were supposed to be his back up if he ran into trouble while he canvassed the neighborhood.

            Again, what show are you watching, because it sure isn’t NCIS?!!! I think it’s hilarious that you used Dead Air as proof of Ziva having his back when it’s an excellent example of her NOT having his back! ROTFLOL!!!!

            Why else do you suppose they were sitting in that car? If it was to _cover his back_ in case the *terrorist* went after Tony, they *should* have left the radio on. If it was to make sure the voice prints were recorded correctly, they would have kept the radio on. I guess they were just there to read their magazines, slack off while Tony did all of the work, and give him a ride back to headquarters? Tony knows how to drive.

          • 4luvofncis says:

            Yep, I’m watching NCIS. It’s on CBS on Tues at 8pm. You misunderstood the concept of that assignment. And due to the nature of him asking general questions about buying a house in the neighborhood, with the intention of doing so BECAUSE he wasn’t in danger, negated the need for Ziva/McGee to listen to each conversation he had w/each resident. Why were Ziva & McGee waiting for him? Who know. You’ll have to ask the writers. Either way I can say w/certainty that they were not trying to indicate that Ziva/McGee didn’t have his back. But if you care that much it makes no difference to me. It doesn’t change what the show wrote. Also, again w/it being an example of Ziva having Tony’s back.if you choose not to see it that way, it’s your prerogative. It doesn’t change that that is what the show portrayed. And you’ve proven that regardless of what REAL examples there are of this, you choose not to accept or believe is the case, so there really is no point in providing them.

          • die Stimme der Vernunft says:

            I didn’t misunderstand anything. I’m just waiting for you to explain why Ziva and Tim turned off the radio when they were supposed to be Tony’s backup. It’s the only reason they were there. Simple police procedure. Just because it is inconvenient to your view of Ziva doesn’t make it not so. Why did Ziva criticize Tony to the DoD inspector? Why did she use Adam? Why did she suck all of her alleged friends into her revenge plot rather than protect them by not including them? Ziva is toxic. You can make up stories and sugar coat all of her actions all you want. Obviously you’re into making up your stories as you go along and not watching the show and understanding what you’re shown.

            At the end of the day it’s quite simple: abuse is not entertaining and neither is an entitled witch who never takes responsibility for her own actions. Like character, like fan, apparently from what I’ve seen here in the past week. What a bunch of wankers. It’s no wonder most NCIS fans avoid TV Line like it has a social disease, because it does: the tiva sore.

          • 4luvofncis says:

            “I’m just waiting for you to explain why Ziva and Tim turned off the radio when they were supposed to be Tony’s backup.” I don’t need to explain. Perhaps it was a flaw. Perhaps they didn’t really need to be there. Perhaps his direct com was on a different device. But it wasn’t an attempt for the writers to portray Ziva & McGee as not backing up Tony. Were they picking on him? Yes. Did they make a jab at him in fun? Yes.

            “Just because it is inconvenient to your view of Ziva doesn’t make it not so.” It has nothing with my view or convenience. It has to do with what the writers want us to view & understand. Well, most of us.

            “Why did Ziva criticize Tony to the DoD inspector?” She also praised him. And because that’s one her pet peeves about him. It’s also her way of deflecting & masking her personal feelings.

            “Why did she use Adam?” And Adam use Ziva, you mean? A guy who clearly took advantage of someone in a vulnerable state? Who clearly was only thinking of his own needs? A flaw in her character is that she used sex to escape her grief and fear as an unhealthy comfort, because she didn’t know it in her heart & couldn’t accept that she actually deserves love & to not be alone. She starting to understand it now.

            “Why did she suck all of her alleged friends into her revenge plot rather than protect them by not including them?” First of all, there was no sucking. The only person she sought help from out of necessity is McGee, who gladly & willingly gave it to her. Tony desperately looked for her. She clearly didn’t suck anyone else in. When was that exactly? And I’m sorry, did you miss the part where she did leave everyone out to protect them when she went to arrest & bring Bodnar in?

            “You can make up stories and sugar coat all of her actions all you want. Obviously you’re into making up your stories as you go along and not watching the show and understanding what you’re shown.” I’m clearly not making anything up. And I could say the same for you. You can make up stories as well & vinegar coat all of her actions all you want. You can think I’m not understanding the show, but realistically that’s not the case and it’s been proven to be so after this episode.

            “Like character, like fan, apparently from what I’ve seen here in the past week. What a bunch of wankers. It’s no wonder most NCIS fans avoid TV Line like it has a social disease, because it does: the tiva sore.” That’s completely inaccurate of her character, IMO. But that’s your perspective. And CERTAINLY of mine. You’re the one calling people names. What does that say about you? And there are plenty of NCIS fans on TV Line. Hence the close to 800 comments. The only reason there is an issue w/this subject is because it is significantly more common for fans not into TIVA to constantly argue with people that make comments that are seeing that the show has been & is putting these two characters together, rather than the other way around. So that’s your sore, not TIVA.

  44. SAM says:

    Well, it’s a challenge, that’s for sure.

  45. Kate says:

    Even with all the Tiva we’ve been given the way I see Tony, or the way I’ve seen MW playing Tony, is to use this arc to grow Tony as a person. And NOT as a person who is bettering himself so he’s worthy of Ziva. His growth started around season 8. We heard he was seeing a therapist, whether he still is or not I’m not sure, but I can definitely see him trying to open up and let those closest to him in. Ziva, of the great Tiva love affair, seems to be the last person on that list that he’s slowly opening up to. He’s always been an open book with Gibbs in private – we’ve been shown this many times. Ducky has always been able to see straight through him. He’s had a friendship with Abby for years and even though we’re shown very little of their relationship now she’s still the person he can still turn to and trust if he needs something or needs a secret kept. We also know that he and Jimmy have a relationship on the side that goes back years now (going dancing and talking things through when he was team leader). Then in early season 9 he started opening up to McGee by confiding in him about his childhood and that he was bullied in school.
    So that leaves only Ziva now, and if Tony is on a journey himself then she’s the last person he needs to open up to. It only becomes all about Tiva or ‘he’s so in love with her’ if you look at it that way, I personally see it as Tony’s growth. Up to this point we know he hasn’t let her in. In the whole eight years of knowing her and working alongside her every single day he’d never once had her to his flat. And only does so after his sanctuary had been breached and he and Gibbs decided that she should stay there and be protected after her father died.
    This is all the ways that I’ve seen Tony change over the last couple of years. He is protective (always has been to every person on the team), and is caring towards his team mate(s) and tries to get her to open up. How much has Ziva changed in all this? She still lies. She still keeps secrets. Her first instinct is always to lash out in anger. Her second instinct is to lash out with violence. In other words NOTHING has changed with her. Go back and watch many scenes towards the end of this season and hear the venom in her voice when she talks to Tony, and only Tony. Although I’ll admit, UNFORTUNATELY, that we’ll probably never see it with the Tiva agenda and all, Tony is at a point in his life where he’s finally ready to meet the person of his dreams and fall in love. Ziva is not that person.
    This is to SAM, You talk about Tony being a forgiving person. I don’t believe he had anything to forgive Kate for. They had a very sibling tit-for-tat rivalry and she never hurt him in any way other than barbed comments in retaliation to his annoying actions. I believed that he loved her in his own way and that losing her was a life changing moment for him. You failed to mention Jenny. Yes, he forgave her too. She was the one who used him in a personal vendetta that left him scarred. But one thing you will notice with Tony is that while he does forgive the women in his life who hurt him he never gives them a 2nd chance with his heart. Jeanne, EJ, Wendy, even his old partner – all forgiven, still remain friends but sent on their merry way with but no second chance granted. The only difference with Ziva is that she’s a member of his team and someone he has to interact with every day. Doesn’t mean that she’s the love of his life though. I think the way he acts with her is the same way he’d act with any female team member who was in her place. And also the same caring and protective way he’d act with Abby if it was her who needed it. You can’t deny that, surely?

    • Voice of Truth says:

      Very good points, Kate. Thanks. I think the show would demean Tony utterly by having him pursue or enter a relationship with Ziva. MW knows it too, but he’ll have to do it if he’s told to. It’s a shame if they make him go there, because Tiva is based on a false view of both characters and MW has a good, clear understanding of Tony and what’s right for Tony, and that isn’t Ziva, as he’s mentioned on more than one occasion. If they do make him play Tiva, he’ll do his squinty-eyed Tiva acting, keeping her at arm’s length and looking awkward and pained by the intimacy, and the writers will no doubt give her some dire, Harlequin novel dialogue to the effect that she just wants to be an itty bitty wifey to him, and pick up his clothes and do his laundry. Nauseating.

    • 4luvofncis says:

      “Up to this point we know he hasn’t let her in. In the whole eight years of knowing her”. That’s simply not true. Family. Moonlighting. Dead Reflection. Baltimore. Secrets. Rekindled. Til Death Do Us Part. Extreme Justice. The Namesake (big one here). You Better Watch Out. Hereafter. Double Blind. Probably others I’m not thinking of. “And only does so after his sanctuary had been breached and he and Gibbs decided that she should stay there and be protected after her father died.” Actually no. Tony offered his apt immediately. There was no discussion w/Gibbs. If fact he said so it fast one might think he was trying to beat Gibbs to the punch. Tony made that decision all by himself. Is that why he feels so obligated to protect her? Has he EVER said this line to anyone else? No.

      “This is all the ways that I’ve seen Tony change over the last couple of years. He is protective (always has been to every person on the team), and is caring towards his team mate(s) and tries to get her to open up.” You’re in denial if you think Ziva isn’t any different from the rest of the team. I have lots of examples.

      “How much has Ziva changed in all this? In other words NOTHING has changed with her.” Reunion. Code of Conduct. Endgame. Outlaws & Inlaws. Jetlag. Masquerade. Moonlighting. Obsession. All of Season 8. All of Season 9. Most of Season 10. The times she might have spoken in irritation were times when she was jealous, trying to make him jealous, or when she had trouble opening up but eventually she did. Regressed after father died.
      “Go back and watch many scenes towards the end of this season and hear the venom in her voice when she talks to Tony, and only Tony.” Here are the episodes you are probably referring to: Chasing Ghosts, Revenge. Because I can’t think of any other episode where this is applicable, other than for the reasons I stated above. Chasing Ghosts: Reasoning for writing (not that I agree with it): too complicated to let Tony in. She wanted to be focused & not distracted by Tony. Let McGee in out of necessity. Revenge: reason for writing (not that I agree with it): just hit by car. in extreme pain – deflecting, redirecting, denying. Extremely pissed for being so vulnerable & close to getting Bodnar & not. Scared that she almost lost Tony. Trying to push him away. Trying to shut herself off. Cares about him the most, therefore, pushes him away harder by being cold & “venomous” as you say. no excuse, a purposeful flaw in her character. Has no closure, needs it. Doesn’t want anyone else involved in her resolving that closure.

      “Although I’ll admit, UNFORTUNATELY, that we’ll probably never see it with the Tiva agenda and all, Tony is at a point in his life where he’s finally ready to meet the person of his dreams and fall in love. Ziva is not that person.” The show is saying she is. And the show is saying he is in love with her, & vice versa. And there is valid reason for this. They’ve both had each others’ backs. They are both willing to die for one another. They’ve been accountable to each other. They’ve inspired the other to become a better person. They have a lot in common, but they are also complimentary. They’ve shared deeply personal things. They are intensely attracted to one another. They have chemistry. They admire one anothers’ strengths. They show each other their weaknesses. Like a mirror. They get under each others’ skins. They challenge each other. They don’t want anyone else to have the other. They are intensely jealous of the others’ romantic interests. They are intensely loyal to others & to each other. They see through one another. They know what each is feeling & thinking. They anticipate each other. They are in sync with each other. They worry about each other. They are there for one another. They appreciate one another. We’ve seen that Tony does not care about life without her in it.

    • SAM says:

      Deny that he would act in a caring way towards Abby? Of course not. But like 4luv says, Ziva is the only one, to date, that he has said that he cannot live without out. And surely you cannot deny that?

      As for you VoT, if you want to say you do not view things through an antiTiva, antiZiva prism, be my guest. I can say that I have a head of hair exactly like that of Samson. And I would be telling the truth — IF we were talking about Samson AFTER he had been shaven by Delilah.

      You blame Ziva and Tiva for the cause of what you perceive as problems for the show. You are one who views romance as detrimental to the show. Then pray tell why DPB wanted to explore a relationship between two agents, both cast members on the show? He has never struck me as a man who wanted to intentionally do anything to harm one of his shows. And I’m sorry, but I simply dismiss your premise that Ziva and Tiva are hurting this show. We have had Tony and Tim go out together during cases, we have had Tim and Ziva go out together during cases, we have had Gibbs and Tim go out together during cases, we have had Gibbs and Tony go out together during cases , we have had Gibbs and Ziva go out together during cases, we have had Gibbs and Vance go out together during a case this season. We have had Ziva and Abby team up to help protect a young girl. We have had interaction between everybody on this show, to one degree or another like we have had since it started. Nothing has changed in that regard. And that’s part of the problem. Very little growth is allowed; it takes place at the pace of a melting glacier. IMO, there is too much emphasis on guest starts of all stripes and not enough on the regular cast, or even the recurring cast. That isn’t the fault of Ziva and that isn’t the fault of Tiva. That’s the fault of Gary Glasberg, who has elected to tell stories through them and not through his cast, in fashion greater than either DPB or SB.

      As for soap operas, I’ll repeat what I said on the proceeding page: A soap opera is all about throwing road blocks in the path of all of the couples, but especially the principal couple. Remove the road blocks, you remove the soap opera aspects. You want to keep Tony and Ziva from becoming a soap opera couple? Put them together and have them deal with the mundane aspects of making a relationship work — BUT have them do it mostly offscreen. Problem solved, to the satisfaction of most people, save those who simply do not like Ziva or Tiva and who view it through that prism of dislike.

      • Gabi says:

        I agree with you 100%.
        And yes, the best way to make this the best of both worlds is to have Tiva happen but after it happens, their interactions (as a couple) could be mostly of screen. I’m totally ok with that. As long as I see them both happy :)

  46. Voice of Truth says:

    SAM – the fact you have to keep telling me and others who don’t agree with you that our views are in a minority smacks of desperation. Judging by the large number of anti voices on this thread, it’s a pretty BIG minority, and certainly sizable enough to count as representative of a depth of feeling out there.

    As I’ve said before, it’s much easier for people to get together and squee over Tiva, photoshop pictures of Tony and Ziva together, and post endless long, meandering posts pontificating about how much Tony and Ziva love each other and how lovely Ziva is, without recourse to the actual facts of the show, but that doesn’t happen when you’re against something. We don’t all get together and squee over how much we dislike Tony and Ziva together, and it’s much harder for us to form a community. The fact that *despite that*, there is such a strong and vocal opposition to Tiva and so many people having issues with Ziva’s character is a strong indication of just how widespread and deeply felt this ‘minority opinion’ is.

    Whenever Tiva is discussed, you and the other Tiva fans show the same behavior: the Tiva fans repeatedly downplay our views by taking the loftily superior tone that those against the pairing are not important and telling us so – because we’re only a *minority* and we don’t represent anything (unlike you of course! you’re so big and important, obviously! SNORT!), you throw out vile and false accusations of racism, and you resort to ‘poor little me, how can you be so *mean*’ and ‘why don’t you stop watching the show then?’ comments.

    If you could spend more time actually discussing the topic at hand, and less framing the narrative about us that you’re trying to construct, then we might actually have a fruitful conversation.

    • BB123 says:

      Regardless of my opinion on Tiva, I hope you don’t get together and talk about how you dislike a character, a pairing or a show. That can’t be healthy…And it disturb me a little thinking that somewhere, in the web, I sure some people just do that for a show, artist, movie, character …

      • L. Burke says:

        I can honestly say I’ve NEVER run in to an anti-TIVA community on the web.

        Can I find a bunch of ‘Tiva Shipper’ sites and communities out there? Yes.

        The closest I’ve found is a post now or then on other shipper sites say Tony/Abby or Tony/Gibbs making a snide comment or two. The mods for the most parts shut the discussion down fast with a ‘No character bashing. Stay on topic’ post.

        Have I run in to post that kind of discuss why Tony and Ziva aren’t good for each other? Yup. There was a really interesting discussion in a community that talked about the cannon signs of abuse in Tony’s childhood. That discussion led in to traits the assault in Israel and why Tony never reported it and some very interesting post on why Tony and Ziva could be a very bad mix.

        I think the closest I’ve ever come to an Anti-Tiva post was a post during an episode discussion where someone asked when Ziva was going to get a backbone, stand-up to Mossad and her other ‘friends’ and finally shut down the agent “Agent Meatball” remarks. And that was more Italian Americans fans discussing why Ziva (and the show writers for that fact) finds it perfectly acceptable to throw a not-so-nice ethnic slur around. Which kind of steered in to a discussion of the writing of Tony recently and Italian American stereotypes on TV.

      • Voice of Truth says:

        Sigh. As I said, we DON’T get together to discuss that we don’t like Tiva or Ziva. We don’t have a community for that. That’s the point. WE aren’t the ones unhealthily sitting around talking about TIva all day long. WE aren’t the ones photoshopping heads onto bodies to show them getting married. WE aren’t the ones posting pictures of them on Tumblr day and night. WE aren’t the ones imagining MW and CdP getting together in real life and hating on MW’s real life wife and family (interesting, but not surprising, that Cote’s boyfriend doesn’t get hated on by the Tiva fans). WE aren’t the ones hating on Tony’s romantic interests on the show and sending the actresses who play them hate mail (Sarah Jane Barrett/EJ suffered this particularly). Again, it’s interesting that the actors playing Ziva’s love interests don’t get any hate mail but when you think how much Tiva is about Ziva it’s not surprising. The anger towards the actresses is about Tony finding another woman more interesting than Ziva romantically, not about her doing the same with other guys, because presumably the Tiva fans feel personally slighted by him when he finds other women attractive and forms relationships with them instead of with their princess.

        Surely, the behavior of such fans is far more disturbing than those popping up every now and again on a venue like this where our comments on the topic have been specifically invited, to say we dislike a pairing or character.

        Perhaps you should direct your concern about the mental health of complete strangers towards the people whose whole lives are Tiva, and spend their every waking hour involved in Tiva related online activities.

        • BB123 says:

          Oh believe me I do.
          And I was talking in general, not only about NCIS or shows.
          However I have no issue with an “I love Tiva” board. It’s somewhat positive, fluffly girly teenage way but still. It doesn’t hurt anyone.
          I have issue with “I love Tiva and Hate everyone else”.. That I agree with you is taking things way too far.
          Put in a very simple way. Things dedicated purely for things you like or love : I have no issue. Things that you hate – that’s where I draw the line.
          i am not talking about a few messages on discussion board here and there,. That I have no issues with that, I am talking about tumblr, forum or things if some exist where people would obsessed other things they hate. (once again,I am not talking about anti-tiva or anti-ziva I know that they aren’t like that.)

          • Voice of Truth says:

            An “I hate Tiva” board, if it existed (and to my knowledge it doesn’t) is no more healthy or unhealthy than an “I love Tiva” board. Where it becomes unhealthy is when it’s done to excess and takes over someone’s life, either pro or anti. People are allowed to have their own reactions – people who dislike Tiva and Ziva feel just as passionately as those who love it, and why shouldn’t they be allowed to say so? Our passion arises from our love for the show.

            Why can’t we fight for the show WE love, because that’s what the Tiva fans do all the time. Their version of the show is one I completely abjure. It isn’t one I recognize. Yet if I don’t stand up and say something, the show will think that’s what all the fans out here want and love. It isn’t. I exist. I have a voice. I’m usually ignored, but that’s not going to stop me standing up and being counted.

          • BB123 says:

            Did you miss the part where I wrote that I have no issue with messages on board here and there ? I don’t want you to stop saying that you don’t like things. That’s not what I talking about.
            IF it doesn’t take over somone life ( agree with you there), I just have no issue with someone photoshopping their two favorite character (emphasize on CHARACTER, actors cross a line in my book) together for a cute not overly-sexualize picture.
            But I have an issue with people removing MW wife from a picture or if someone photoshopped a picture to make a character look like he’s dead.
            Once again, I don’t talk about anti-tiva here. I have never seen things like that from anti-tivas. But what you wrote earlier somehow put that idea in my mind that there are people out there that just do that, either against any tony love-interest, othr characters and actress in other shows and movies, or artists and celebrities in general.
            And while i don’t see the harm of someone using photoshop to show their love for a pairing (and again in a moderate level not all day long) I do see it if iit’s use to show hate.
            That’s all I was trying to say. i was not attacking you or anyone else on this board.

    • SAM says:

      The reason why I refer to the antiTivas as a minority is because, based on my observations over the last few years, and especially over the last couple of years, that’s what they are — their viewpoint is the minority. I simply think there are more proTivas out there than there are antiTivas. I do think that they are very well represented here, but I see the same names over and over again (to be fair, the same can be said for the proTivas). Some do a better job than others, but all speak with a very loud voice. Volume doesn’t make up for lack of numbers, but it does make sure that their voice is heard.

      Now, just because you’re a minority doesn’t mean that you are a teeny, tiny minority. Nor does it mean we proTivas are a super majority; like I said in a previous post, I believe our numbers are such that we could be considered to be ranked a significant plurality. Our numbers must be pretty good to warrant having the subject addressed in one shape, form or another by the writers over the past few years.

      As for your opinions on Ziva, again, it’s a minority viewpoint, and I would go so far as to say that it is far smaller in numbers than what there is for the opposition to Tiva. Again, those who share your opinion are loud and they make sure that everybody hears it, including the writers for NCIS. And you will note that they continue to portray here as a heroine, because that’s how she is meant to be viewed, just like the rest of the cast. Frankly, I think your real concern shouldn’t be me and my views, but rather those connected with the show. Because you’re right — while our numbers might be larger than yours, they aren’t listening to us push for them to put Tony and Ziva together any sooner. Just as they aren’t going to be portraying Ziva as some great villainess anytime soon either. They are going to do what they are going to do, and write it they way they want to write it. And the way they write it is with Ziva as a heroine.

      As for the rest of your points, they seem to be more about running me down than they are about dealing with the subjects you claim to want to discuss. Which would seem to indicate that you have a narrative that you want to frame here, that you believe will help your POV. Whatever. I’ve been trying to have a conversation with you. Sorry you think otherwise. Have a nice day.

      • BB123 says:

        To be fair, I think the majority of viewer is “What’s the Tiva Think you’re all fighting about ???”.
        People invested n the relationship (pro or con) are a minority even if we put them together.
        And they just don’t care enough to be upset one way or another. They just want to enjoy their show. If it’s well-written they’ll be on board.
        Sadly, right now, it isn’t the case. The Tiva Dance is stale and boring. They need to stop it. Either they are together or not. That’s not the most important. The most important thing that them being together ior moving on from each others well written.
        Eitheir way, they’ll looe a few wievers, the anti or the pro. But IMO if writers don’t take a decision soon, they’ll lose the anti – that can’t take the dance anymore, the pro – that giive up on the waiting – and even some of who doesn’t care because it’s that decision is way overdue.

        • Voice of Truth says:

          I agree with you here, BB123. I think they’ve already alienated the antis with the constant Tiva dance. It’s not as if by not doing Tiva we don’t get any – we do. All the time. In great big ugly anvils that are utterly banal and cringe-worthy if you’re not a Tiva fan, and don’t go anywhere if you are. They should either pull back and nix Tiva altogether or they should do Tiva. I think if they force MW to do will fall. But then I think they’ll fall anyway because the show is slow, lazy and formulaic and the writing is generally much poorer now than in the past. The characters are so way off base as to be unrecognizable now from how they started out, and most of the plots are either incomprehensible or just plain boring. The minute NCIS gets some real competition on a Tuesday night the ratings will plummet. I think that’ll happen in Sept, but a lot depends on how good SHIELD is. I think TPTB will then decide to pursue Tiva, as a last ditch attempt to pull back the audience, but it’ll just make it shrink even faster.

          • Kate says:

            The Tiva dance has been done to death over the last couple of years and it’s BORING. It has to play out and be stated over and over again in these big OBVIOUS scenes that never really go anywhere. Where’s that ambiguity gone that NCIS was once so good at?
            Honestly, I could care less if they gave a hint of Tiva here and there for those shippers as long as they kept the balance they once had, but that balance is long gone and it’s still never enough for the shippers. THAT’S the main reason I’m ready to give up on the show. Where’s the Tony/Gibbs relationship I used to love seeing? Where’s the little scenes for the McAbby shippers? Where’s the fun Tony/Abby/Gibbs relationship gone? Bring all those back and concentrate more on the team rather than segregating them all. Let us FEEL that the team cares for each other rather than telling us. I think if S11 focused more on bringing back THAT chemistry while still telling an interesting, gripping story then they’ll remain untouchable.

      • Voice of Truth says:

        But YOU are speaking with a very loud voice too, SAM. In fact, the pro-Tiva voice is shouted far louder and in more places than ours. We just want to make it clear we exist, but you begrudge us even that, and you are so keen to discredit our ‘minority’ view that you keep going on and on and on about how few we are, and how loud we are, as if by saying it repeatedly you hope to make it true.

        I didn’t answer the rest of your points, even though I disagreed with most of them because it’s just too exhausting to keep rehashing plot points with someone who appears to interpret every single event through a lens of Tiva. Jeanne for example – your take on that was utterly wrong to my mind. I doubt their relationship could have worked in view of how it started, but to question whether he had any real feelings of love for her is to misunderstand the entire plot, based on the fact you can’t accept he ever really could love any woman than Ziva from the moment he first met her.

        • SAM says:

          LOL! Well, there you have me — I DO have a “very loud voice.” I don’t deny that. And I’m not afraid to use it whenever I see fit. Which isn’t nearly as often as you might think.

          But as for saying that I “begrudge” your existence? Please point out where I have done that. I have no problem with you or anybody against the Tony and Ziva pairing expressing their opinion, their POV. Yes, I think there are more of us than there are of you, and I tend to believe we have the better of you on this matter. So what? Have I said, at any time, to you, or to people like you “Stop posting?” Of course not. I don’t have that power, and even if I did, I wouldn’t use it against any of you. I don’t want to and I don’t need to because I am confident enough, in my opinions and the ability to communicate and express them, that I don’t have to seek ways of denying you the right to make your opinion known.

          Nor have I seen anybody who shares your POV say “Well, SAM says we’re in the minority, so I guess I’ll give up and throw in the towel.” Hah! If anything, I would say that it has made you and all the rest that much more determined to express your POV. There’s a lot to admire and respect in your dogged determination and persistence. I wish more people in other areas of life would respond to challenges much the way most all of you do.

          As for the rest of your remarks — you say that my take on Tony in regards to Jeanne was “utterly wrong”, and yet you agree with me that there was no way “the relationship could have worked in view of how it started” — yep, that’s exactly what I think too. And where did I say that I doubted or questioned that he had any real feelings of love for her? Go back and read what I said — in two places I said that I didn’t deny that Tony had developed real feelings of love for her — he never would have taken as long as he did to get over her if he hadn’t. You could see that no matter what kind of lens a person would be looking through at the time.

          Nor have I ever said that Tony fell in love with Ziva the minute he laid eyes on her. Far from it. Nor she with him. I think he fell in lust with her right from the start, and her protestations to the contrary, so did she. But that was the extent of it for both of them. As to what point he did, I think that it was either “Voice Of Reason” or 4love that said he was showing signs of it by the time “Judgment Day” aired. Maybe. Personally, I’m not sure about that. One thing is for sure — while he was assigned as an Agent Afloat, he thought about her quite often. And he was extremely glad to see her when she showed up when she did in “AA”. But I’m not sure he was really conscious of the fact that he was beginning to fall for her until she asked him if he was jealous of Rivkin in “Legends” and when Rivkin called him on it in their tete-e-tete in the café scene in “Semper Fidelis”; he really didn’t have a response to what he said, probably because it was the first time somebody like that had thrown it back in his face. By that point, yes, he was falling for her.

          And here’s another point that we agree on, although we approach the same conclusion from different places on the subject — I agree with you that if “S.H.I.E.L.D” does well against NCIS, then GG will go ahead and put them together sooner than what he intends. While it might drive you and folks like you away, they probably already know that will happen — they’ll be trying to hold onto the proTiva people and others who might not be clamoring for it, but won’t walk away if it happens and they do a good job with it. Here’s the problem: if not a majority, then a significant plurality of the Tiva fans believe that GG has done a poor job of handling it and has dragged it out to the point that more than a few of them have given up and have quit watching the show. Many more have said that after what happened in that scene in the woods, they are on the fence about whether or not they will be back to tune in and watch the SP, and even more have said that while they might watch the SP, they more than likely will not be back for more after that. I know more than a few of these people, and if they are saying that they aren’t coming back, they mean it. So whether GG realizes it or not, delaying putting them together has caused many fans of the pairing to quit watching, and has caused even more to heavily lean towards also not watching anymore, to the point that cashing in the show’s insurance policy may not do it any good. It certainly isn’t going to do it as much good as it would have done had they put them together four seasons ago, or even if they had done so by the end of this season. I readily admit that. And this is coming from somebody who you claim views everything through a Tiva lens.

          The truth of the matter is that most people approach subjects viewing them through a lens or prism that affects their POV on that subject to some degree or another. You say I see things through a Tiva lens — it’s clear you see things through an anti Tiva and anti Ziva lens. Fine. And yet, isn’t it interesting that we were able to reach the very same conclusion on a few things in spite of that. Oh well, I found it interesting.

          • L. Burke says:

            “SP, they more than likely will not be back for more after that”

            That’s because they’re not nearly as cool as us Tony/Abby shippers. And frankly I’m kind of tried of the “I’ll stop watching” temper tantrums on both sides.

            We Tony/Abby fans take the show in this regard as it is and know when Tony and Ziva are bitterly divorced and only speaking through lawyers in five years Tony and Abby would have found happiness together. Tony and Ziva have NOTHING in common outside of work and the show sure hasn’t bothered to take the time to build up anything to make us believe they do. Friendship that caught fire? Psst. Please. Give me a break. Name one mutual hobby or interest that Tony and Ziva share outside of work? You can’t. Tony and Abby have similar hobbies, interest, senses of humor, and ethnic backgrounds to get them through the tough times long term. So we know after Tony and Ziva’s passion fades Tony and Abby will end up finding long term happiness together.

          • Gabi says:

            Uhhhm what do Tony and Abby have in common? And what hobbies do they both have in common? And what does their ethnic background have to do with their relationship?
            I’m sorry, I’m just saying… that doesn’t make sense.

          • Tabby FTW! says:

            L.Burke, you said it! Tony and Abby have fantastic chemistry. I miss all of their scenes together but their relationship is one of the best on the show. Talk about a great pairing!

          • L. Burke says:

            Yeah, I found another one!

            And yup from Tony and Abby laughing together with their mutual shared quirky humor, from them talking in depth old movies, going out clubbing together, their views on sex, the mutual respect and from –way- back them getting each other’s occasional thrown out Italian American references. Above that Tony and Abby like and respect each other and that’s building blocks to any long term lasting relationship. They’re just awesome together. Tony and Ziva? Nothing in common besides some physical chemistry and work. That’s it. Five years tops before the only speaking through divorce lawyers are involved. And that’s being generous. :)

          • Lillian says:

            Yeah, you kind of lost me at “ethnic background” as a child of a mixed marriage with parents of two very different ethnic backgrounds. They worked out just fine, thankyouverymuch.

          • Voice of Truth says:

            But the point is I don’t see the show through an anti Tiva and anti Ziva lens, SAM. That’s precisely the issue. I watch NCIS as a quirky crime procedural with a (with one exception) lovable cast of characters. What bothers me is the way the Tiva and Ziva fans view it entirely as a vehicle for Ziva’s dramas and a backdrop for Tiva. I used to love the storytelling and the teamwork. Virtually every fan of NCIS will tell you they loved the sense of team, but it hasn’t really existed for many years. There are many reasons for that but one of them is the focus on Ziva/Mossad and her tragic self-pitying dramas, and the other is that they want to put Tiva in every episode to keep the Tiva fans happy so we now see virtually no Tony/Abby, or Ducky/Abby or even Tony/Gibbs. The show used to give us any number of possible pairings – Tabby, Tibbs, Tiva, McGiva, Zibbs, Gabby etc but now all that has gone to make way for the great Tiva train.

            We also used to have a genuine cross-mix of different people interacting but because Tiva has been promoted, the TEAM has suffered, as the scripts are manipulated to give Tony and Ziva screen time together and a ‘moment’. Those of us who enjoyed the show in its early days MISS that sense of teamwork so much, and lay the blame for its lack firmly at the door of both Tiva and Ziva. I also dislike the distrust theme and Ziva is at the heart of that. I want to believe in the team but with Ziva there I never can. After all she’s done, the fact she’s there warps the rest of them to such a degree that their motivations and characters can make no logical sense.

            I can see both Tibbs and Tabby far more than I can see Tiva, but the truth is I don’t want any romances between main characters, and I don’t want the show twisted to promote any such romance. Tim/Abby was dealt with incredibly well (and mainly offscreen) in S1 and 2 but is now reduced to a lingering sense of petty jealousy instead of being knocked on the head and got rid of altogether, which is what should happen. I’d be fine if the team was married to other people offscreen and we didn’t have to see much of those relationships. But the minute a romance happens between any of the main characters then we’ll have to see it done onscreen and that ruins the balance of the show and alienates those of us who aren’t interested in romance period. If I want romance, I can watch any number of shows that are ABOUT romance, where romance is central to the premise of the show. NCIS isn’t that, and there simply isn’t time for it in the format, if they’re also going to solve crimes every week. Unless you turn the format into a soap then it doesn’t work, and I don’t want it to be a soap. There are plenty of those out there for people to enjoy but this isn’t the right vehicle for those kinds of plotlines. NCIS has also notoriously done romance incredibly badly, especially since DPB left: Wendy, Ryan, Hart, EJ, Snow, Rivkin, Ray… It’s like they wrote these love interests poorly on purpose with the express wish that people would dislike these characters. I have zero interest in who any of the team sleeps with – it only panders to the section of the audience that wants the show to be more like a soap, and it should be kept offscreen.

            I don’t view Tiva as the show’s ‘insurance policy’, SAM – I view it as its death warrant. Whenever Tiva happens, then we all know the end is nigh. Tiva is the ship that will sink the show.

            Now, I feel I’ve spent more than enough time on this thread, and said everything I want to say. It’s been good to have a venue to talk about this. I know that my voice isn’t listened to by the show or considered important, and that isn’t going to change, but I am glad I stood up for myself and the other people who feel the same way. And there are a lot of us, no matter how much the Tiva fans try to downplay our voices, tell us how much of a minority we are, and how unimportant, and accuse us of being sock puppets, and racists, and mean, and haters. NCIS is something we love and feel passionately about too. If the Tiva fans can say they are angry and upset about Tiva not happening and threaten to stop watching if they don’t get what they want, then I don’t see how that makes them any less the ‘haters’ that they accuse us of being.

            I’m going to sign off now and not return to this thread to read more comments or respond again. Good day to you all.

          • Kate says:

            Bravo, Voice of Truth. I agree with everything you’ve said and have nothing more to add other than +1.

  47. Darlene says:

    @L. Burke and @Tabby FTW: I would love to see Tony and Abby as a couple. Heck, I’d love to see them interact like they used to (and the glimpses we see only sparingly these days – the episode where Abby comes running towards the team in her hazmat suit and jumps into Tony’s arms was great). They have a wonderful friendship and Abby has never tried to deliberately hurt tony with her remarks.

    I could see that friendship developing into something more in a way that I just can’t see the Tony/Ziva friendship becoming something more (probably because I don’t even see how Tony and Ziva are “best friends” and wouldn’t know it if the show hadn’t had Tony say so). With Tony and Abby, you see the friendship. You don’t have to be told that it’s a friendship.
    You don’t have to have other characters (and complete strangers) commenting on it so that we, the viewer, can get the point. You don’t have to develop whole back stories and explanations never presented on the show in order to explain their friendshhip.

    The only thing I disagree with you on, L. Burke, is pointing to Tony and Abby’s ethnic backgrounds as being compatible. I have many married friends (because I go to a church that emphasizes and welcomes a congregation that bonds together across ethnic, cultural, and generational lines) with totally opposite ethnic and cultural backgrounds who have been together for years and are still going strong.

    I do agree with you, L. Burke, that Tony and Ziva would not last, and I think you’re being generous with 5 years.

    • L. Burke says:

      For me it was the scenes where Abby stands up to Ziva about not trusting Tony and later how she went WAY beyond to bat to help clear Tony’s name when Chip framed him. She’s the only one that stood up for Tony and announced she knew Tony, she knew he wasn’t capable of murder, and so she knew something was wrong with her science somewhere.
      One reason I can’t buy in to the Tony/Ziva ship because when push comes to shove I’ve NEVER seen Ziva do something like for him. Not like Abby has. The latest scenes where Ziva is bad mouthing Tony to the Inspector, behind his back, just helped reinforce that me. Respect and mutual interest are what makes relationships go long term once your past the ripping each other’s clothes off stage.
      Ethnic and social-economic backgrounds aren’t everything and I wasn’t trying to imply they are. They do help though. I’ve noticed that it helps sometimes to help uncode things like body language, cultural traditions, ect.
      As for the 5 years I gave them. I was factoring in they’re both stubborn. But yeah, five years tops. :)

      • Darlene says:

        Those are wonderful scenes you’ve pointed out, L. Burke! And remember the scene where Tony comes back to work after having the plague? His John Wayne “little lady” greeting and Abby’s gleeful squeal and hug – so nice. Abby’s affection for Tony is always so nice to see. The scenes you’re talking about show us the strong Abby as well as one who questions her own science because she knows Tony (and that scene was awesome, with her vowing to use her forensic science to, as she said,”rise up against the person that did this to Tony, and I will crucify him.” That was great!
        I cannot understand why Ziva felt the need to call Tony childish in front of a DOD investigator who holds the team (and each individual on it)’s livelihood in his hands. But I guess that’s love somehow. But, no matter, the writers will be sure to write a scene that let’s us know that Ziva really does love Tony, no matter how forced that scene will need to be.

        • Voice of Truth says:

          I could totally get behind a Abby/Tony relationship! I’ve always felt they had the best friendship on the show after Tony and Gibbs and at least you get the sense they genuinely LIKE each other which I never get from Tony and Ziva. I would much prefer to see Tabby rather than Tiva. I can see Tony/Gibbs as well, but I never saw any romantic or sexual chemistry between Tony and Ziva. They seem to bring out the worst in each other.

        • L. Burke says:

          Besides Tony and Abby, another couple I see a lot of potential is Tony and Kate’s sister. There were some sparks there in that episode where Tony was trying to remember what happened after he was shot. The more they show of Kate’s sister the more I adore that character. I hope they bring her back soon. Tony and her exploring something outside the office and tip-toeing around Kate’s memory could be interesting to watch. Even if it doesn’t work for them long term and they part as good friends.

          • Darlene says:

            Now that one I think would be very interesting…and complex in a good way. I would not mind seeing that relationship develop.

        • Tabby FTW! says:

          Tony & Abby are absolutely adorable together! The preppie and the goth! I love their friendship and their amazing chemistry. It really is magical how much chemistry the entire Core4 have. I can’t help but wonder if that is part of the reason they are rarely seen in a scene together any more: because they actually have chemistry and the tiva pales in comparison with its constant need to be pointed out instead of being so obvious like Tabby is. I wouldn’t care if they were ever actually paired up since I don’t want romances within the team on the show, I’d just love to see them interact more often. Their interactions always bring a smile to my face.

          • Darlene says:

            The Preppie and the Goth! that’s great. They do have wonderful chemistry. I love it when Tony visits Abby in her lab (though that’s so rare these days). I’d love to see how Tony and Abby met, what transpired, and how their friendship grew (since she commented that Tony was like a piercing when she met him).

            I’m pretty much against romance on the show between team members because of the drag down factor. But Abby is so quirky and Tony is so funny, and both care at a very deep level, and both are so loyal to Gibbs and the team, they’re a good match. And they’d be unconventional and exciting in a good way for the show to work with since they are not the “hey let’s put the two beautiful people together because that’s how these things are supposed to work” couple. It’d be refreshing! So, hey, I’m with you, Tabby FTW!

  48. 4luvofncis says:

    Here’s an idea! Ziva & Dorneget! Ziva is always so nice to him. And they get along so well. Oh, wait, he’s gay. Oops. Maybe he & McGee could get together. Maybe McGee swings both ways.How about Ziva w/McGee? I mean, they’re practically brother & sister but they have great chemistry. I love it when they touch & go on crime scenes together. I mean, why not? Because these scenarios are JUST as realistic as the 8 years that Tony & Ziva have been building their relationship!! and flirting and being sexually frustrated and caring about each other and being attracted to one another not being able to go on living without each other and challenging each other and getting under each other’s skin and being angry at each other and forgiving each other and falling in love w/each other!! Insert clip from Dagger, about 19:30.

    • L. Burke says:

      Hey, you can ship for who whatever turns you on. :) As far as I know Ziva hasn’t bad mouthed Dorneget behind his back to DOD inspectors so at least Ziva and Dorneget have a semi-solid professional respect there to build on. And, hey, you just never know. They haven’t introduced a good Bi character on network tv yet. When they did introduce Ziva they did hint strongly she swung both ways so the lifestyle wouldn’t shock her.

      • die Stimme der Vernunft says:

        I like the way you think, L. Burke. Ziva is always sweet with McGee, so why not pair them up? They can even still use the same silly name mashup. Ziva and McGee actually act like they like and respect each other, they share secrets, have bonded over playing jokes on Tony and Timmy is someone Ziva goes to for help. I think she would eat him alive but you never know, Tim might surprise us. Abby was quite happy with Tim’s talents in the coffin. He might take charge and surprise Ziva.

        Since it was heavily hinted that Ziva is bi, an even better choice would be Monique. There was an undercurrent between them in that episode. Then Ziva could follow her to the wilds of Colombia, never to be seen again! ;)

        • L. Burke says:

          I honestly thought they had more plans to end up with Ziva and Gibbs together in the not so distant past. The writers have actually taken the time to build something solid there besides just UST and flirty looks. I’ve pointed out again and again the writers haven’t even bothered to give Tony and Ziva one hobby outside of work they have in common. Frankly I’d be happy if they’d just back off the romance at allow Tony as a character to do what he was designed to do. He was SUPPOSE to be Gibbs counterbalance. The character that pulls Gibbs back on the rails after he’s gone off them to far. I’m kind of hoping they give Tony his spine back and when Gibbs does come back to collect him. Tony shows he that walked a police beat and lays some ground rules about say covering up murders because they’re your mentor, mother-in-law, ect. The justice system is far from perfect but sanctioned revenge killing shouldn’t be part of it. They put people in FEDERAL prison for that stuff. It’s about time someone calls Gibbs on his BS and Tony as his 2IC should be the character to do it.

      • 4luvofncis says:

        Oh I’m sorry, I thought we were playing the game of “suggesting the most ridiculous, unrealistic pairings on NCIS.” ;)

        • die Stimme der Vernunft says:

          It fits right in with putting up with the most ridiculous, unrealistic Ziva apologists from the NCIS fandom. Make it up as you go along, sweetheart, don’t let canon facts get in the way of your fantasy. Obviously, you haven’t yet.

          • 4luvofncis says:

            Actually, the show speaks for itself, “honey.” Lol. It’s not really fantasy when the show runner says that canon is the plan. So there’s the canon fact, if you need one. But I’m basing “Tony & Ziva” on the writing of the show. “The writing’s on the wall,” as they say. Or, “the proof is in the pudding.”

        • Gabi says:

          Hahahha seriously 4luvofncis. I was about to say, Dornaget and Ziva? That doesn’t even… smh. Lol thank God you weren’t serious about any of those.

    • Darlene says:

      Ziva and McGee would be great together! He has the ability to calm her down and he is good at offer ing her a different perspective on situations. She obviously trusts him. Great idea, 4luvofncis! McZiva…has a nice ring to it, too!

      • 4luvofncis says:

        Yep, McZiva as a friendship. Period. :)

      • L. Burke says:

        If they were going to get Ziva together with anyone it should be Gibbs. They’ve shown on screen over and over again how she respects him. He’s the one that always backs her and she runs to when she’s over her head. They have similar past, ect.

        • 4luvofncis says:

          That doesn’t jive too well w/the script of “and the closest thing that I have to a father is accusing me,” (Ziva to Gibbs in Reunion) and “You’re my daughter” (Gibbs to Ziva in Good Cop, Bad Cop), and “My father taught me” (Ziva to Gibbs in Dead Air). That pretty much establishes their relationship. The person that backs Ziva up the most and gets her the most, is Tony. And I believe at this point Tony knows just as much about her past if not more so than Gibbs; but as far her guard goes, & expressing that she needs him, her (daughterly) feelings for Gibbs don’t scare her as much as her feelings for Tony.

          • L. Burke says:

            “That doesn’t jive too well w/the script of “and the closest thing that I have to a father is accusing me”. Jives about as well as flashing back to your father with Tony in her arms. I’m sure the writers were trying for romantic in that scene instead of my eyes, my eyes. Another point for the fans on this board that just argue the writers of this show should just forget about the romance. They just are not good at it. I just pointed out that relationships are built on respect and trust. How’d my grandmother always put it? “If the one you’re running to in your darkest hours isn’t your soul mate. Well, it’s because that person isn’t your soul mate.” In her darkest hours it’s Gibbs and not Tony Ziva runs to. Its Gibbs Ziva stands up and defends to others not Tony.

          • 4luvofncis says:

            Interesting. The purpose of the flashback was to show Ziva who deserves her love: Tony. So it’s just a coincidence that while she is dancing with Tony that she has a flashback of dancing w/her father & he says “one day you will dance w/the man who deserves your love,” cut quickly back to Ziva who seems to realize something?? And there was plenty of connection & innuendo in their eye contact. So much to the point that Cote said, “we had to shorten it because anymore than that & we’d have to cut to the hotel room.” It was perfectly romantic. I don’t see any Gibbs in that scenario. This is just too weird talking about. Gibbs is her father figure for Pete’s sake, lol. Please explain the darkest hours that Ziva ran to Gibbs for, other than in Shalom when she didn’t have Tony as a choice. What are the examples of Ziva standing up for Gibbs and not Tony? I love these grandiose generalizing statements that have no back up.

          • Gabi says:

            Thank you! ^^

    • 4luvofncis says:

      Haha. I love the responses to this as if any of those were legitimate, intentional, realistic, and plausible suggestions. Lol. Never gonna happen folks. Keep dreamin’.

      • Gabi says:

        Hahaha I was wondering the same thing. I don’t think the writers would ever do something like that.

        • 4luvofncis says:

          Well, some people are clearly desperate & just can’t accept the truth. :)

          • Gabi says:

            The truth as in TIVA IS TRUE LOVE? Hahaha just to annoy all these haters :)

          • 4luvofncis says:

            Well, I tend to think that all types of love are true, when it IS true. :) I prefer to think of them as “meant to be” or “soul mates,” as those are the words the show specifically used.

          • Gabi says:

            Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. That’s EXACTLY what they are :) <3 soul mates and meant to be.

  49. Some people like Tiva and some don’t and that is totally fine To each there own. I like all the characters on the show equally, so I would be happy if the Tony/Ziva relationship became a reality. One thing I will say though is that the writers need to figure out what they want for themselves and soon, all this push and pull is becoming repetitive. The relationship (if thats what it is to be) needs to be given a firmer sense of direction, or else they need to pull the plug on it. Where it is right now… it’s not doing anyone any good.
    Maybe the producers/writers etc. should worry less about ratings and more about creating a solid storyline!!

    • I totally agree…..the producers/writers etc. do need to focus more on creating a solid storyline in Season 11!

      And I agree with you about Tony/Ziva relationship, it really needs a firmer sense of direction instead of what we’ve gotten so far. Cause you’re right, where it is right now, not doing anyone any good and all the entertainment websites are starting to call them on this issue.

    • SAM says:

      Would that more shows would follow your suggestion.

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